Izen Ears Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 Okay so I just got to flipping through my issues of the 695 Quarterly (usually I read comics or golden age sci-fi, not periodicals) and got to this series. For those of you have not read this fine publication, this is a series of articles written by Scott D. Smith currently at installment #6, providing an amazing and fact-filled historical narrative regarding sound recording technology as it relates to motion pictures. The people you never heard of who devoted portions of their lives figuring out how to reproduce sound. HOLY CRAPTATORS! WHATTA GREAT READ! I had no idea what a hassle the whole optical sound process was, not even an inkling really. My first sound recording gigs were during the last days of DATs, I didn't even get to use a 1/4" Nagra. (I do have a Tascam 38 1/2" reel deck for music recording so I had an idea of what a hassle reel recoding could be, but no clue how y'all did on set.) I use a digital deck and from the little I know about the post process it's all pretty easy now. In fact it's a cakewalk compared to the whole optical sound thing. I only have installments #3 and up, but thanks to modern marvelous tech we can all go here and catch up: http://www.695.com/html/magazine.html I know 1927's Jazz Singer was the talkie that changed the whole movie thing, but does anyone know when actual production sound became the standard? Isn't it true that for a long time after talkies all dialog was ADR-ed? Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 Dan, Thanks for the fine plug on Scott Smith's series of articles, "When Sound Was Reel" in the 695 Quarterly. Scott is doing a fantastic job and his excellent writing and research into this important era of film sound history is about letting all of us get an "education" about the time when sprockets reigned! Speaking as one of the three editors of the 695 Quarterly, we wanted to take a look back at the very roots of our craft, when sound was recorded on sound reels and magnetic film was edited by hand, frames by frame. It's a marvelous story and we appreciate your enthusiasm. Best regards, Editors of the 695 Quarterly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 I am a big fan of the 695 Quarterly as well. Well crafted and educational to all at whatever level they work at... Thanks for the effort. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 Dan, There is a lot of misconception about the first use of sound recording on film. There is a great book, out of print, but still available via Amazon, called "The Speed of Sound" - Hollywood and the Talkie Revolution 1926 -1930, by Scott Eyman, Simon and Shuster publishing, 1997. I have read my copy and re-read it countless times, it's filled with post-it tags to all the great history. I highly recommend it: http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Sound-Hollywood-Revolution-1926-1930/dp/0801861926/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284182087&sr=8-3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobD Posted September 11, 2010 Report Share Posted September 11, 2010 Dan, There is a lot of misconception about the first use of sound recording on film. There is a great book, out of print, but still available via Amazon, called "The Speed of Sound" - Hollywood and the Talkie Revolution 1926 -1930, by Scott Eyman, Simon and Shuster publishing, 1997. I have read my copy and re-read it countless times, it's filled with post-it tags to all the great history. I highly recommend it: http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Sound-Hollywood-Revolution-1926-1930/dp/0801861926/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284182087&sr=8-3 Richard..... Your a Godsend..... I fly back from home in Czech tomorrow, and read through my books on hand. I downloaded an electronic copy for all my devices and now have some quality stuff to read on my way back to the States... I want to thank you.... Really,the book looks great!!!! and, as always, I like books I learn from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 Thanks all for the comments. It's been fascinating journey digging back through the history of sound for film, getting a glimpse of what those who went before us has to put up with. While I was already pretty familiar with most of the basic technology from the late forties up to the present, I uncovered plenty of things that I didn't know about. Just remember when you're sitting on set with your latest micro hard drive recorder that there were a whole lot of folks that paved the way for you (many whom were uncredited), working in equally inhospitable situations, with equally clueless directors and producers-the only difference being that they had about 3000 lbs. of gear to haul around! Sadly, there is very little information readily available regarding the early days of motion picture sound. What little has been documented tends to be squirreled away in various archives and libraries, as well as the collections of private individuals. Just finding it is a project unto itself. In addition to Scott Eyman's excellent book "The Speed of Sound", which covers the very earliest period of sound, there are also two installments done by Edward W. Kellogg that were published in the SMPTE Journal, that were based on a presentation he did in at a conference in May of 1954. Kellogg was an engineer, so his paper tends to focus on the the technological developments in the business, but for those who want to glean an understanding of some of the events that led us to where we are today, it is an interesting read. The links are: www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/smpte/movie.sound/kellogg-history1.pdf www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/smpte/movie.sound/kellogg-history2.pdf I would also be remiss if I didn't thank David Waelder for for keeping me on track with his excellent editorial work, without which I would sound like a blithering idiot... --Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 Thank you for the acknowledgment. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 it was more than an acknowledgement, it was a well deserved compliment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bperlman Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 A big "two thumbs up" to all involved in this history, and in publishing the 695 magazine. It is smart, well crafted, and an important tool for sharing the information necessary to celebrate our history and further the development of our craft. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 The links are: www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/smpte/movie.sound/kellogg-history1.pdf www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/smpte/movie.sound/kellogg-history2.pdf ----------- the links are not working unfortunately. I tried looking for the documents on the website but could not find them. will try again tomorrow... -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Holm Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 http://www.filmsoundsweden.se/ljudbilder/sf_bilder/sf.htm Some pictures from the past... //Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Holm Posted September 13, 2010 Report Share Posted September 13, 2010 Sound FX recorded simultaneous... Look at the two guys in the back. //Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izen Ears Posted September 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2010 These pictures are amazing thank you! And wowzers to hear from the esteemed author himself, well it's a privilege to have this dialog. I think this piece, when it is completed, should be compiled into a single publication, like a small press kind of thing; and everyone here should read it! Mr. Smith your efforts are greatly appreciated by me I think your findings should make it into all sound-related film school curriculums! Reading the installments really made me feel like a part of a greater tradition, a movement to get sound to match the moving pictures. And boy am I glad I came in when I did, the digital age is just so much damn easier than optical, Nagra (having only 11 minutes and then having to re-string up another roll!), and DAT... I would DIE if I had a roll out... I'm interested in production vs. ADR sound, or is this going to be discussed in future installments? I realize I'm flaunting my ignorance but is it possible that production sound was used on all those old B & W movies like Casablanca and Singing in the Rain and stuff? I know actors spoke much clearer and projected and most of movies were shot on lots where background noise wasn't a huge problem. Seems like it's possible bu then there's all those 60s movies that seem clearly ADR-ed? Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 Vin: The links should work. They even opened on my ancient Windows 2000 machine! Make sure that you have a PDF reader installed as part of your browser. Otherwise, you can just download the files and open them. --Scott The links are: www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/smpte/movie.sound/kellogg-history1.pdf www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/smpte/movie.sound/kellogg-history2.pdf ----------- the links are not working unfortunately. I tried looking for the documents on the website but could not find them. will try again tomorrow... -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 Christian: Great photo! Wish I could find more like 'em! --Scott Sound FX recorded simultaneous... Look at the two guys in the back. //Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 Yeah, I'm hoping to delve into some of the history of ADR vs. production tracks at some point, which is a complete art unto itself. It will probably be awhile, though... While I can't speak specifically about the looping done on films like "Casablanca" and "Singing in the Rain" (I wasn't around then!), I have listened to the original mixes and the occasional production tracks for older films, and am continually amazed at what those guys were able to accomplish with the technology they had at hand. The same goes for some of the FX and music recording. However, much of the credit also has to go to the actors, who unlike many of the mumble mouths we have to deal with now, actually knew how to project their lines, while still conveying the emotional impact of the scene. Not an easy thing to do-although every single actor I've worked with who's had theater training manages it. It 'oughta be a requirement to get a SAG card! I have long been fascinated by the intelligibility of the mixes done on some older films-I almost never have to strain to hear the dialogue (unlike some contemporary films). In some ways the limited bandwidth of the sound channels of the day may have actually worked in their favor in this regard. Also, it was the norm to include both limiters and compressors at various stages of production and re-recording (you can definitely hear them working!). The quality could be extremely variable however, even with the same studio operations. In addition, re-recording mixers tended to not jam the music and FX right up to the level of the dialogue (something that the "Dialog Norm" feature in the ASTC structure for broadcast TV was supposed to fix, but hasn't). This is one area where the expanded dynamic range afforded by Dolby noise reduction and digital recording has actually worked against dialog, which more than a few re-recording mixers have pointed out. Also, having a standardized level (85 dba) during both re-recording and subsequent theater exhibition was supposed to address the issue too, but we all know how well that has worked out... There was also not the constant use of multiple cameras for dialogue sequences, which didn't really become the norm until TV shows like "I Love Lucy", so the boom ops actually had a chance to do their job. They also did not have to contend with shots which were composed for a 1.85 aspect ratio frame, but still protected TV. (And prior to that they had to ONLY deal with 1.33 or 1.66, not all this other bullshit we have now). --Scott clip>> I'm interested in production vs. ADR sound, or is this going to be discussed in future installments? I realize I'm flaunting my ignorance but is it possible that production sound was used on all those old B & W movies like Casablanca and Singing in the Rain and stuff? I know actors spoke much clearer and projected and most of movies were shot on lots where background noise wasn't a huge problem. Seems like it's possible bu then there's all those 60s movies that seem clearly ADR-ed? Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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