Rob Lewis Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Hi everyone ! I know that this subject has been covered on the RAMPS portal but I would like to discuss this a little further. Today I did a sitdown interview with a very soft spoken woman. I had placed an MKH-50 over her head approx. 2 feet away. On my mixer I had my trim set to 4 oclock and my fader between 1-3 oclock. No excessive system noise, just more ambient present. This seems like quite a bit of gain, and I can hear the heads on an older Betacam. To compensate for the loudness I often then turn my headphone volume down to a comfortable monitoring volume. (which may be the wrong thing to do) (Note: typically I try to peak at +6dbu or more on the mixers meter.) I guess my question is : Do any of you other 442 users experience similar gain settings like this ocassionaly. I just had my mixer in for a tuneup and it passed spec so I dont think there any problems other than mumblers that I have to interview. In comparison, I have been doing reality shows this summer using the Wendt X5. We typically have the preamp gain set at -10 for all input sources and the fader I run between 1-3 o'clock making the VU meters bounce nicely. The comparable -10 setting on the 442 is about 4 o'clock on the trim. I would assume that the Wendt 0db setting would be comparable to trim all the way open on 442. I have had to do a couple of interviews with the preamp switch at 0db on the Wendt. If these settings are truly similar between the two mixers than what I'm experiencing is perfectly normal and I just hestiate to push the gain on the 442. I'm looking for other folks experince's with gain settings no matter what mixer is used !! This may be a strange question and I could be looking into this way to much, but I'm curious to what other folks experince from job to job !!! Thanks, Rob L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Unless the shot demanded it, 2 feet above the head of a soft talker is too much even with a MKH 50. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted November 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 In other words Eric, I should have made a better mic selection !! The only issue I run into is that the speaker is loud until the interview starts and then they get all soft on me and its to late to change mic's. This seems to be the norm these days and it makes me feel that my gear is not good enough or I'm making poor decisions !! Any advice ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffrey Colon Posted November 4, 2006 Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 Hello Rob,All Oleg makes a good point... so does Eric in that moving the mic about 16 inches closer to the source would increase the level about 7db (every halving =3db if memory serves me...) There are so many ways to approach this... Should not someone speaking softly on a wide shot sound soft? Maximize your reach with a shotgun, but a line gradient mic in a reverberant interior gets ugly fast...of all the tools availiable you're going to have to decide what's appropriate for the shot. One thing I do in this situation is use the meters on the 442 as guides to my S/N ratio... I tend to run things hot from the trim pot on the input side. usually I will find myself cranking the phones when someone is particularly softspoken and this will make any self noise more apparent. Usually, I have (am expected to have) the option of a wire for primary voice recording...always an option. hope my ramble helps... Jeff C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted November 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2006 I think that the lesson that I learned here is that I made a poor choice in mic selection for the specific shot. I realize that I may be relying on the 50 or my Schoeps 41 a little to much for sitdown interviews. I prepped the mic assuming it would be a typical tight talking head, when I should have waited until the shooter showed me his widest frame and then made my mic selection. Sometimes I can feel so rushed these days that falling back to my MKH 60/416 would be the safest and smartest choice. Thanks for all the input guys !!! It is much appreciated!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Sometimes if you're not sure of the framing and time is short use a lav and a boom and send split tracks to the camera. Be sure to indicate whats where, i.e. boom on 1, lav on 2. Don't be surprised if the lav track is used over the boom track in the final cut. A lot of producers prefer it because it sounds like television. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim apter Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Hey, I frequently find myself doubting my gear in similar ways (302), when I encounter soft talkers. Im working on a low budget drama at the moment, using 2 302's, and of course its not the best mixer choice for drama due to lower level projection from actors in some scenes. But, its all we have to work with on the budget. Just wanna clear something up here - when you say four o clock on the gain pot, you are meaning 12 is the top, 3 is straight to the right, and 4 a little lower, right? It freaks me out pushing gain pots that high - SD mixers might be quiet, but mics and locations sure as hell arent, and thats where stuff gets dangerous to me. I often wonder, could it not be beneficial (maybe not on beta, but we're shooting DVcam, so digital formats) to record at a bit of a lower level in these instances and avoid gear related noise creeping into the track - then let post rather boost a clean digital signal than leave a noisy one alone? opinions? Im typically running my gain pots at 1 or 2 o'clock and my fader at 1 to 2 o'clock as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted November 5, 2006 Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 I would assume that the PFL switch or circuit is being used for setting correct gain staging on the 442 & 302. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted November 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2006 Yes Tim when refering to the trim position 12 O'clock is straight up, 3 is pointing to the right and 4 a little past that. I do use the PFL to set level. At the 4 position I do hear some very minor system noise on a quiet location, but they are rare anymore and it is background noise I'm fighting at the higher gain/soft spoken person settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim apter Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 i think perhaps my key problem is maybe not the mixer, but the mics. Im using a 416 (that is VERY due for replacement, Im sure its noisier than it should be) and an Oktava MK12 (which is actually performing with less noise than the 416! So something is clearly wrong). Budget is tight right now, but next year Im gonna move to CS3 and MKH50 or similar. Rob, unfortunately the real pain here is that even when we boost a signal like these to an acceptable recording level on the mixer, the ratio of speaker to environment wont change at all - effectively we're probably just seeming to hear more background because the peaks come up to more apparent levels and the dialogue moves from apparent to just plain old loud. Even a higher output microphone is not going to change this ratio - only three things can (as I see this) affect things: position of the mic getting further or closer to sound source. background getting louder or softer. sound source getting louder or softer. So again it goes back to my question (in digital workflow) of whether boosting a signal from maybe an average of -20 odd dBFS to -12dBFS is even a GOOD thing. Im not sure, and Id be happy for someone to correct me or comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curleysound Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 I have a 442, 415T's Schoeps MK41, KMR81, and 816P and my gain has been at 3 or 4 o'clock for the entire time I've owned it on all those mics. My lectros clock in at around 9 O'Clock. I've often wondered about this, and that the limiter never seems to trip, but stuff sounds good and I keep getting hired, so I let it go. Does anyone have any info on the threshhold, and attack of the limiter on the 442? I hope it's not in the manual, because I'd feel pretty silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim apter Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 threshold is in the manual, it can be set however ya like it. i dunno about the attack, but i'd guess it would be a very fast attack, medium/slow release system... it bugs me that sd stuff works so high up on the gain pots. it just feels scary to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 442 input limiters are +18dBu threshold, 20:1 ratio. 1mS attack, 200mS release. Output limiters +4dBu to +20dBu in 1db steps. 20:1 ratio, 1mS attack, 200mS release. Eric ps to Silly Curley; read page 15 in the 442 users manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 You do know that on the 442 you can increase your over all levels by taking the master fader out of the 12 o'clock detent position and turning it to the right. Their is no rule that says the master must stay in the detent position. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curleysound Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 Figures. I got it to a spot where I liked it when it was new, and haven't looked at the thing since. D'Oh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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