Alex C Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Hello All, BRAND new to the forum here. It was nice to find such a good audio resource. So I'm fairly new to the audio eng gig. I did editing for a shop in Portland for about 6 months before their audio guy moved away. I let it slip that I'd been playing music my whole life, which I guess equates to me being the new audio guy. I was more than glad to oblige, and am really enjoying it so far. I, however, was given a very 101 basic training on our specific audio bag, and have very little knowledge outside. MY QUESTION WITHOUT THE BACKSTORY: I'll be mixing on a 552 direct to RED, and I don't know where my tone levels should be landing on the 552, or the RED. Any help is much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobD Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Hello All, BRAND new to the forum here. It was nice to find such a good audio resource. So I'm fairly new to the audio eng gig. I did editing for a shop in Portland for about 6 months before their audio guy moved away. I let it slip that I'd been playing music my whole life, which I guess equates to me being the new audio guy. I was more than glad to oblige, and am really enjoying it so far. I, however, was given a very 101 basic training on our specific audio bag, and have very little knowledge outside. MY QUESTION WITHOUT THE BACKSTORY: I'll be mixing on a 552 direct to RED, and I don't know where my tone levels should be landing on the 552, or the RED. Any help is much appreciated. Welcome Alex, We will give the Senator the evening off..... There is plenty of this information on this site. Do a search and you will find plenty of information on level settings for the 552 and especially the RED .... Good luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 -20db is the usual line up between recorder and camera. But that is a basic guess. I would look up the specifics of your gear n camera. Always record a good mix to your recorder. Cover your ass w such a recording. Good luck. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 -20db is the usual line up between recorder and camera. But that is a basic guess. I would look up the specifics of your gear n camera. Always record a good mix to your recorder. Cover your ass w such a recording. Good luck. CrewC Roger all that, especially w/ the RED. Ignore the RED's meter markings and set your ref tone around mid-scale. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 so, if my recorder is set to "half-tone," or -20db, where should the line/mic in be set on the RED? Unless I missed something that was said, my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 For the purposes of matching devices with full scale peak meters (like the Sound Devices and the Red, the line up tone is too often needlessly made complex. The fact is that it doesn't matter what numerical value you use in this case, as long as it is the same on both devices (in this case the Sound Devices 552 and the Red camera. For example, if there is a tone on the 552 at -10, then the same tone should line up at -10 on the recorder, and then the recorder and mixer are properly lined up. -20 is the accepted standard for the 0VU reference for recording original dialog tracks, which is why we usually use this level of tone, but this is not what we're talking about when aligning the SD-552 and the Red. Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Looney Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Not really related to levels but just remember that if you're also recording to the the 552, it records at 30fps as a default without any way of altering the fps rate internally (unless you're being fed time code externally) so if you're working without time code, you'll have to edit the meta data afterwards. Not an issue if the RED is also running at 30fps but if not then you'll have sync issues (fixed in seconds using Wave Agent!). Good luck with everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Buncher Posted October 17, 2010 Report Share Posted October 17, 2010 With the latest firmware update, 1.2, the 552 no longer defaults to 30fps. If no tc input exists then the 552 just stamps time-of-day. change - in the absence of a time code signal, timecode & speed related metadata is not written. This is to prevent Final Cut Pro from introducing unintended sound file speed changes. The 552 continues to write the time-of-day value as a start time code stamp in bEXT when when time code is absent. http://www.sounddevices.com/download/552-firmware.htm Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 So I guess there's something I'm missing... For some reason a hard concept for me to latch on to. When I'm micing someone on set, and they're just speaking their lines, where should they be hitting on my scale? -20db? or is that just where I should aim for ref tone to the red? I'm sorry this isn't clicking like I'd hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 " is that just where I should aim for ref tone to the red? " yes! on digital meters (which end at 0dBFS) the 0dB represents all bits on, and a brick wall maximum level. on analog type meters (including lights/bars), the "0" value is more towards the middle of the scale, with clipping at some value like +22. tone at -20dBFS on a digital meter is about the same as tone set at 0 db on analog type meters, both having around 20dB of "headroom" over the lineup tone. but don't waste all 20 dB of headroom. voice peaks are way too fast for mechanical (real) meters, but on faster responding types of meters, it is OK to get to around 8 dB away from the "wall". on peaks I tell my students to keep the meter bouncing in the middle 1/3 of the range. too low, and the s/n ratio is poor, too high and an unexpected peak will hit the wall... Jay Rose has excellent books covering the stuff you are asking: www.dplay.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 " is that just where I should aim for ref tone to the red? " yes! on digital meters (which end at 0dBFS) the 0dB represents all bits on, and a brick wall maximum level. on analog type meters (including lights/bars), the "0" value is more towards the middle of the scale, with clipping at some value like +22. tone at -20dBFS on a digital meter is about the same as tone set at 0 db on analog type meters, both having around 20dB of "headroom" over the lineup tone. but don't waste all 20 dB of headroom. voice peaks are way too fast for mechanical (real) meters, but on faster responding types of meters, it is OK to get to around 8 dB away from the "wall". on peaks I tell my students to keep the meter bouncing in the middle 1/3 of the range. too low, and the s/n ratio is poor, too high and an unexpected peak will hit the wall... Jay Rose has excellent books covering the stuff you are asking: www.dplay.com I think something just clicked. See? --> *click* So on the 552 (which sports a digital meter), I'll be running -20db tone, and my dialogue in the range -20db to around -8db, as to not get to close to the brick wall, which on a digital meter is 0db. So why on Earth did the Audio Gods choose 0db for digital to be a max, and 0db for analog to be middle range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 sorry, you have to do some of your own homework... the analog scales and digital scale have different references. hint: Dorrough used to have a good tutorial on their web site: http://www.dorrough.com/part1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 <<For some reason a hard concept for me to latch on to.>> dude, too little time to learn how to do it right and a LOT to learn at that. you have some way to go, but if you are game, there are a lot of people out here who will lead you on for a bit. only if you are game. Heh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 cause maybe you need to go to school before you starts the university to get the difference between dbu and the dbfs . i dont think you even ready to ask the questions Can't afford audio eng school. The internet is my school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 " The internet is my school. " it is a good thing there is nothing but correct information on the internet! Experience keeps a dear school, and some will learn from no other. you are going to have to go to that school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 " The internet is my school. " it is a good thing there is nothing but correct information on the internet! Experience keeps a dear school, and some will learn from no other. you are going to have to go to that school! I definitely am trying. It's a lot of info, (dumptruck amount) to take in when you're kind of thrown into a one-man department like I have. I'm playing 3 roles essentially and need any help I can get =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 << and I don't know where my tone levels should be landing on the 552, or the RED.>> how come you don't know where the tone levels should be landing on the 552 - which is where the tone is being generated? it's another thing as to how and where the level should be on the red, when fed with the tone from the 552. dude, check it out - somewhere where you can... internet or otherwise... good luck with your shoot. -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 if you need help - of the kind that means - "i need another guy to do XYQ" - then you should tell the producers etc. but this thing about your recorder and camera stuff - you should figure out yourself man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 and, oh, the manuals, and websites like (read my hat) for info and useful FAQ's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Not sure if it was explained simply in all the replys. Tone from your mixer should be at "0", all digital recorders downstream should be set at -20dbfs assuming they have some type of metering scale. If you keep the levels on your mixer between -20 and -10 you'll be fine. Also remember that line level out to line level in and mic level out to mic level in. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Not sure if it was explained simply in all the replys. Tone from your mixer should be at "0", all digital recorders downstream should be set at -20dbfs assuming they have some type of metering scale. If you keep the levels on your mixer between -20 and -10 you'll be fine. Also remember that line level out to line level in and mic level out to mic level in. Eric Perfect. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Correction: Your mixer levels shoud show between "0" & +10 which translate to -20 to -10 on the recorder. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 " Your mixer levels shoud " Your mixer peak levels should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex C Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 Correction: Your mixer levels shoud show between "0" & +10 which translate to -20 to -10 on the recorder. Eric I'm using 1 unit. The 552. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 21, 2010 Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 this discussion began with: " I'll be mixing on a 552 direct to RED, and I don't know where my tone levels should be landing on the 552, or the RED. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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