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DEVA 5 and ProTools 7.2 track assigns


Paul Ledford

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Yesterday I visited with a sound editor and saw something I would like to mention here. This person was cutting with sound from a DEVA 5 and had metadata and track assigns listed on each track that ProTools 7.2 could view. The files were renamed with a designed convention by the post supervisor with the picture department cutting on Avids. The track assigns were left as I had loaded them in on the DEVA 5.

I had noticed the lack of sound logs in front of this person and asked about that. The editor said they were coming, but the picture folks had not sent them over just yet. The media had arrived early, BUT that did not stop them from moving ahead, because all of the tracks were labeled and they were using the metadata.

My thoughts were ... Ok fine … most of that is good news with the new software, but I know that there are times when in the midst of trying to get information from the set about changes or when I am waiting in the void with no new information from direction or my crew, the AD calls for "roll sound".  When that happens, I would not hold them up to rename or reassign the tracks for that stuff. AND yes I can screw up a track label or three over the course of the show.

While I do go back and redo the scene and take info when needed, I have found the track names are welded to the audio of the file and can not be changed on site and do a re-mirror for a more accurate file info.

The upshot is that I do go back and try to make sure the sound logs (which in my case is 4 part NCR paper) are correct for fear that this issue exist in the way some of the metadata and track labels are written. I see this thought needs to be on the cover letter of each job that is handed off until a solution is found or that a note in the daily email brief I do is added to alert to the possible inaccuracy of the track names inside the file.

Folks in post production need to know that just because the information (the track labels in this case) comes from a file generated by a computer does not mean perfection.

Junk in Junk out will be the warning until there is a way we can access the track info on the MARF files while we are in production and on set with that information still fresh before me.

Changing all of that info on the BWF files on either the UDF DVDRAM or the FAT32 files at the end of the day or while hopping around locations is just not an option for me.

Maybe someone knows another way.

P. Ledford

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Guest Eric Lamontagne

Fostex DV824 stamps at the begining of your take. With a few keystrokes the file name (scene/slate) is easily changed, with a few more as are the track names. If done in DDR mode, both drives will have current info immediatly with only a one time update!

I frequently do not know the scene/slate number ahead of time and I alter after recording, this is especially handy with mis-slates.

(now if only i can plug in the correct timecode after the fact on a improper timecode jam, but then it would be impossible for me to know the actual timecode when I hit that button now wouldn't it!)

Eric

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Hey Paul, et all.... It would be nice if us deva users could go back and correct the meta data of takes when the info changes at the last second, or is not conveyed at all. It would also be nice if the sound reports, or copys of our reports always traveled with the sound media, I always assumed they did, so that post could read our notes. I also always out of old habits Vo slate the head and tail of all takes so that anyone listening would know what take it is/was regardless of the metadata embedded in the file. I'm so old school that I still 1 beep the head, and 2 beep the tail of all takes. In my world of commercials timecode is king and that is all telecine and post care about. On some days the shoot is so crazy that you seldom get to enter sc/tk#'s. Most days though we enter all the data and are good record keepers by an large, until the last min change comes our way and we can't make the change even with the 10 sec preroll. So yea in my world it would be great to revisit the metadata and correct it, but with longform work like films with their extended post prod. all over the world, it seems that this would be a nessesity. I'm sure that day is coming, but then so is Christmas.

P.S> to Paul... It was very cool that you n Randy let Case dayplay with you two on O.13, he is pretty green for the game you play, but he had a ball and learned a boatload. Thanks.

CrewC

PSS I would love to hear your take on your work on "The Good German".

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On many commercials I work on the scene changes and roll/cuts are coming at us so fast that I have reverted to using paper reports and having each piece of audio have a unique ascending file number.  Since most of what I do goes to telecine and then to post via OMF, my efforts are mostly to help the telecine guy.  So I too still voice slate the sc. + take when I  roll.  I can easily update the changes to the paper report, and there is less confusion caused by mislabelling audio files and false starts and after-the-cut- name changes.  I realize this won't work for folks doing movies or episodics but it's working great for us on small jobs.

Philip Perkins

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This is a problem that has been a constant annoyance to me, and I have spoken to Glenn Sanders about it a few times. As more and more editors move over to PT 7.0, it's really going to become an issue.

Paul has outlined the dilemna quite nicely. I have posted similar gripes on the Deva list about it, but no answers are forthcoming. As least with Deva II, you could use Zingo to build the log during the day, and apply the corrections the the BWF files with MetaShift at at the end of the day.

While it's possible to least correct the Scene/Take/Note info in Deva 4/5, we're stuck with the track names. Yes, you can go in and correct each file at the end of the day on the DVD-RAM, but it's a painful process, especially when the Teamsters are breathing down your neck to get the film shipment out.

Also, there is no way to view the files contained on the drive as a list (like you could in Zingo). You have to scroll through them one at a time with those inane little touch screen buttons (which you can't see for shit in sunlight!)

There's gotta be a better way....

Scott D. Smith C.A.S.

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  • 3 months later...

On the Cantar you can re-label metadata before you burn the files to media.

This is done in a pre-record mode where the metadata labeling happens. the media is then burned when in pause or stop. So i always try to finish out a scene and go back, if need be, to rename tracks, make comments etc. prior to burning the DVD Ram files for the scene.

I filled in on a Deva based cart last week and couldn't believe that the metadata was that rigid on the Deva. Not a very well thought out design.

Scott Harber

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There's gotta be a better way....

Scott D. Smith C.A.S.

Dear Scott "Zingo" Smith:

There IS a better way, at least for you, and that is stop using your Deva and move on to something else that more closely suits your needs. Doesn't all the complaining wear you out? Obviously, Zaxcom is going to continue to refine the Deva and it will continue to be the machine of choice, with or without its limitations, for many, many people. If you are so dissatisfied with your Deva or with Zaxcom, sell it (no problem finding a buyer), why not just move on to something else?

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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I try to keep up the best I can but I feel that I have to balance efficiency on the set w/ recordkeeping for post.  We still do a written report and enter scene info in the metadata when we can, but on a fast moving job where there are a lot of little variations in shots and often the script person is a lap behind in what's going on we fix the written reports first and the metadata if there is time.  If a film break comes or we are wrapping in the rain and dark while the big truck motors are idling then off the DVDRAM goes as-is, with correct written notes and our apologies.  If we're on a nice cozy stage with an early wrap, we'll make it all good.  I STILL think that the most foolproof way of doing a crazy job is to assign a unique ascending file number to each BWF, and include that number as a new column in the written notes.  That way there is no confusion about what was a real take or a false start, and there is no need for screwing around w/ renaming ever.

Philip Perkins

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I STILL think that the most foolproof way of doing a crazy job is to assign a unique ascending file number to each BWF, and include that number as a new column in the written notes.  That way there is no confusion about what was a real take or a false start, and there is no need for screwing around w/ renaming ever.

Philip Perkins

This is exactly what I do and have been doing since day one. I have been called the "anti-metadata" because of my resistance to all sorts of extensive record-keeping chores, I continue to do really goood informative written sound reports --- there is a column just called "number" which I use for the Deva segment number.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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This is exactly what I do and have been doing since day one. I have been called the "anti-metadata" because of my resistance to all sorts of extensive record-keeping chores, I continue to do really goood informative written sound reports --- there is a column just called "number" which I use for the Deva segment number.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

And this mixer is still applauding your answer to the guy on the panel @ the last CAS workflow seminar with the long PowerPoint list of metadata he wanted production mixers to supply....

Philip Perkins

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  • 1 month later...

(...) there is a column just called "number" which I use for the Deva segment number.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

I call this column "file name" on my sound report, since the file will be named xxxxnnnn.wav (x=folder, n=segment number) and the folder name it's the same for all files (on that folder)

"File name" sounds friendlier to some people (or that's my feeling)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've found the metadata entry quite easy on the Deva. Honestly, I don't have the time to deal with re-doing metadata after the fact, and I don't see how you guys do. when I hand off sound reports, I tell the project director that it's very important that a copy of the reports go wherever the sound goes at all times, and if there is confusion, to refer to the reports. Granted the stuff I'm doing is less stress than what most of you folks are working on, but with the deva, if there is a set change, and different actors (all wireless when I do MOCAP), I have them all assigned to a track, and if I need to re-route or re-label a track, it's quite easy.

also, a program like sound hack allows you to change pretty much anything in the metadata, so if you needed to change something, you could do it there. If I'm doing something that's a little more complicated than a MOCAP shoot, I don't label the tracks on the deva with talent or character names, I just call the tracks mix, boom, wireless 1...and so on, and label who is on what in the sound reports. That way, it almost forces them to look at the sound reports. As primarily a post guy, I don't like NOT having sound reports.

-Dave

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  • 3 months later...
Guest klingklang

also, a program like sound hack allows you to change pretty much anything in the metadata, so if you needed to change something, you could do it there.

-Dave

Soundhack does not edit meta-data at all. You can edit the file-header in term of sample-rate etc. but it doesn´t let you edit bext or xml data.

k.

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I just went thru the wringer on a series of multicam HD shoots on location.  The HD mode now seems to be to just keep rolling and change slates (or not bother) and tell the actors to start over etc..  Recorders like SD can't change file names etc while they are rolling (one small advantage of Metacorder), so I reverted to the Wexler Method and just did an ascending take number.  The result: more time to worry about audio, less time spent on secretarial work. Lots of false starts, and script-supe changes of heart about sc/take numbers in mid take or after the fact.  Annoying, but that's how they do it. 

Philip Perkins

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