Lav with lowest self-noise?

[Tom Visser]

As the topic suggests, which miniature microphone has the lowest self-noise?  It would have to be compatible with a wireless transmitter with low voltage bias current (Zaxcom compatible).  The application is for what can best be described as nature recordings, but not for a production environment, more for measurement and later scientific analysis.

Extended frequency response beyond traditional vocal range is recommended.  Some weatherproof abilities would be nice, although the mics will generally be well sheltered.  Absolute sound quality or flat frequency response is not emphasized here, as all mics would be the same, in same installations, and readings would be calibrated to whatever mic I select.

I am mostly familiar with Sony ECM and DPA 406# style.  The Countryman B6 and Sennheiser MKE-1 are interesting to me due to their water / humidity resistance.  I love my DPA's but wonder if their self noise traits is not necessarily the best first choice.  Size is not important, so if there is a larger mic that can still be powered by low bias-DC, that would work too.

[John Moore]

You might want to check out the Yahoo group  Nature Recordists: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/

They have a lot of very helpful folks there as well, and I've read posts relating to this subject.

John

[Tom Visser]

Hi Tom.

Why Lav? DO you have to stick it in tight places?

I plan on making an approximately 12" enclosure with baffling to provide some directivity of the mics, basically a 4-way array.  Lavs tend to be fairly cheap compared to other mics, and I expect the performance to be good enough.  This is not about fidelity or absolute accuracy, just being able to capture the required frequency response and get good measurements of the delta dB differences between the mics.

[berniebeaudry]

I plan on making an approximately 12" enclosure with baffling to provide some directivity of the mics, basically a 4-way array.  Lavs tend to be fairly cheap compared to other mics, and I expect the performance to be good enough.  This is not about fidelity or absolute accuracy, just being able to capture the required frequency response and get good measurements of the delta dB differences between the mics.

Hey Tom,

Check this gear out: http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphones.html

He might have something that will work, or might be willing to build you something custom.  At any rate the prices are good.  I own two of his very small omni mics (not sure he makes the particular model anymore) and they sound really good.  I don't use them that often so I would be open to loaning them to you.  On the other hand you could probably own them for not too much more than what that might cost.

Best,

Bernie

[John Moore]

Here's a page with lots of ideas on arrays: https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-reports/PanasonicWM-61A_OtherBinauralRigs/WM61A_Webpage_Caps_Mounts.html

More of Rob Danielson's project pages: https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-art-tech-gallery/index.html

John

[Tom Visser]

Thanks for the resources guys, it looks like the Countryman B6 (regular / high sensitivity) provides the best performance specs for the job, and its waterproof abilities are reassuring for this project.

[bigmaho]

Make sure you use the caps on the B6 to keep them waterproof.

Billy

[imagist]

I found this interesting - I don't agree with the spoken conclusions (as translated by Vimeo and my setup perhaps), but it's nicely constructed, generously offered and 'on topic' as it starts with a discussion of sensitivity - includes the new Rode -

Lav Shootout! Sennheiser Me-2 / Tram TR50 / Sanken COS11D / RØDE Lavalier          by Chad Johnson

Lav Shootout! Sennheiser Me-2 / Tram TR50 / Sanken COS11D / RØDE Lavalier

[Jeff Wexler]

I really enjoyed the "Lav Shootout" posted here, but unfortunately the number of steps and the amount of processing required on the way to having the video here, has pretty much "equalized" all of the lavs. Each sounds slightly different, this is true, but any critical evaluation of how they really sound is basically impossible.

I am interested in the way the Rode lav is using a single unified connector approach, something which has been done or years with DPA lavs. I totally understand the concept, buy the microphone once with the universal connector, then it can be used in many different configurations over time (so you're nog tied to one connector that only works with one transmitter). I am wary of this approach since the connection between the Rode connector and the adapter that will always be needed regardless, is a place for potential trouble when connected to a wireless transmitter. I have several DPA's with the Microport (DPA) connector that requires an adaptor ... there have been times when this connection has created noise and intermittent connection problems.

[soundtrane]

Just got my hands on a Da-Cappo DA04 lav today for evaulation, pretty much like a B6 but this one needs no protective caps. I have to put a connector on it and check it out.

[BVS]

Jeff, that sound when the Microport connector for the DPA is loose, is so distinctive you can go straight to it.

An ounce of prevention with making sure that connector is tight is worth it.......the flexibility outweighs the slight disadvantage of it perhaps coming loose.

BVS

[studiomprd]

+1

just a light touch of Cramolin, and tighten just finger snugly...

[RadoStefanov]

Do you think they rigged the review and processed the Rode Lav?

It sounds great.

[RPSharman]

Critical listening was difficult, but even the somewhat noisy environment that is my home, and listening on computer speakers, I found the Tram to be least desirable, then the Rode.  I favored the Senn and Sanken mics.  I wish they had compared one of the better Senn lavs, which are still my favorite.  But I am saying this with virtually no DPA experience.

Robert

[Matt Radlauer]

The Sanken won it for me...and is actually always my first choice in the field....I keep trams and sankens in my bag.

The Rode is definately second...I havent seen a freq response chart, but it looks like there is an emphasis on mid-range freqs but not so much that it sounds muddy...It comes off as a pretty transparent mic.

The Micon connector thing is cool but seems gimmicky if its not well constructed...if you were to cross thread that connector you could find yourself in a bind...so to speak.

I find lav/shotgun comparisons to be somewhat pointless...The shotgun is almost always the better sounding mic. Its got a larger diaphram, therefore more acurrate freq response. Plus your comparing a very directional mic with an omni? I get what he was trying to do but it kinda came off as a commercial for Rode...

[Jeff Wexler]

Do you think they rigged the review and processed the Rode Lav?

It sounds great.

If you are referring to my comment about "processing" I was referring to the process by which the video was produced and brought to us. I seriously doubt that they did anything sneaky with the actual demo itself.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Petros Kolyvas]

If you are referring to my comment about "processing" I was referring to the process by which the video was produced and brought to us. I seriously doubt that they did anything sneaky with the actual demo itself.

-  Jeff Wexler

Chad is a regular and helpful poster on DVXuser. I might point him here so he can answer any questions.

[RadoStefanov]

No I meant EQ processing.

If you are referring to my comment about "processing" I was referring to the process by which the video was produced and brought to us. I seriously doubt that they did anything sneaky with the actual demo itself.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Chadfish]

Hey guys.

I'm the guy that made the video. I'll try to respond to some things said. I did this with no direction from Guy Cochrin (who supplied the Rode Lav and a G3 unit to play it through) other than to make it look good with good lighting and cutaways. I saw that Guy was selling the Rode Lav, and asked him to do a shootout, but he didn't have the time and all the mics so I ended up doing it.

Having been the only one who listened to the original files vs the Vimeo encoded version, I have to say that I can clearly pick out the differences of each mic in Vimeo. I am listening on JBL LSR4328 monitors though. There may be a slight loss in the airy frequencies on Vimeo, but I feel the sound is good enough for a comparison. YouTube is another story...

No processing was done on any lav. What would be the point of that? I matched the levels as best as I could using 3 Sennheiser wireless systems on the Sanken, Rode & Senn ME-2, and a Lectrosonics on the Tram. I know, not consistent. But my gain staging was good enough to not hear much noise on any track, but the ME-2 was the only one that I did notice noise on due to it's low sensitivity, and need to turn it up 8db to match the Sanken. NO EQ OR COMPRESSION ON ANYTHING.

It's not a commercial for Rode. As I said, I thought the Sanken was the best. I own the ME-2, the Sanken, and the Tram. I wanted to use the NTG-3 as a pallet cleanser so to speak, but also so people who may be using a shotgun in one element of their show, but then another scene comes on where lavs were needed. Even though you may not mix the two types of mics in one scene, your edit may result in a lav shot coming in right after a shotgun shot. The COS11D is known as a mic that cuts well with shotguns comparatively speaking. Obviously the shotgun will sound better. I chose that over my AT4053b because my room is treated, and the reflections don't hit the shotgun like they would in a brighter room, so it sounds great, and my AT4053b sounds dark to me in that room. Both awesome mics by the way!

I am a videographer/audio engineer and do not sell anything or work for any mic companies. I just wanted this for my own edification, and Guy helped me do that, as it helps him. I really think the Rode is pretty sweet. The connectors seem sturdy, though the wire seemed thin. But it's so modular that you only have to replace the piece you break. I thought it sounded full but with good articulation in the highs while remaining smooth. As an audio engineer I like that, as I can color the track as I want after the fact, rather than having a hyped frequency I may have to pull out. Anyway I get used to whatever mic I'm using (as long as it's a good one!). To me the Tram was dark in the comparison. But today I shot a Yoga class, and used the Tram because I get RF hits there with my lowly Sennheiser G3, and the tram is my only mic wired for Lectrosonics. Long story shot - the Tram sounded awesome. Beefy yet clear.

So it's all relative IMO. Personally I would go with the Rode or Sanken over the Tram & ME-2, but I've used all and got very usable results. Can't stand the ME-2 now! Plasticy sounding highs...

That's it fellas. This is a new forum for me. I'll be poking around to see what's up. I'm a gear dork.

Cheers

Chad

[Petros Kolyvas]

That's it fellas. This is a new forum for me. I'll be poking around to see what's up. I'm a gear dork.

Cheers

Chad

Glad you showed up.

[Peter Deutscher]

Glad you showed up.

Looks like everyone is making the jump...

[Jan McL]

I too am glad you showed up, Chad. The kind of information you provided in your shootout video is good stuff for other gear nerds for sure. Thanks for taking the time to make it and for explaining the process.

-- Jan

[Jeff Wexler]

Welcome, Chad! thank you for personally coming on here to discuss the lav shootout video (and telling us a little about yourself too). I really enjoyed the video since it was clear to me that it was an honest, straightforward and personal test with no hidden agenda. I think your methodology was fine and even without benefit of a lot of exotic test gear you were able to demonstrate the various mics quite effectively. I think you got the level matching really right on and this is important.

Thanks.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[RadoStefanov]

First I would like to thank you for the great review.

Second this rode lav sounds very good to my ears.

And comparing to the Rode shotgun the match is very good.

One of my favorite mics is a Rode S1.

Hey guys.

I'm the guy that made the video. I'll try to respond to some things said. I did this with no direction from Guy Cochrin (who supplied the Rode Lav and a G3 unit to play it through) other than to make it look good with good lighting and cutaways. I saw that Guy was selling the Rode Lav, and asked him to do a shootout, but he didn't have the time and all the mics so I ended up doing it.

Having been the only one who listened to the original files vs the Vimeo encoded version, I have to say that I can clearly pick out the differences of each mic in Vimeo. I am listening on JBL LSR4328 monitors though. There may be a slight loss in the airy frequencies on Vimeo, but I feel the sound is good enough for a comparison. YouTube is another story...

No processing was done on any lav. What would be the point of that? I matched the levels as best as I could using 3 Sennheiser wireless systems on the Sanken, Rode & Senn ME-2, and a Lectrosonics on the Tram. I know, not consistent. But my gain staging was good enough to not hear much noise on any track, but the ME-2 was the only one that I did notice noise on due to it's low sensitivity, and need to turn it up 8db to match the Sanken. NO EQ OR COMPRESSION ON ANYTHING.

It's not a commercial for Rode. As I said, I thought the Sanken was the best. I own the ME-2, the Sanken, and the Tram. I wanted to use the NTG-3 as a pallet cleanser so to speak, but also so people who may be using a shotgun in one element of their show, but then another scene comes on where lavs were needed. Even though you may not mix the two types of mics in one scene, your edit may result in a lav shot coming in right after a shotgun shot. The COS11D is known as a mic that cuts well with shotguns comparatively speaking. Obviously the shotgun will sound better. I chose that over my AT4053b because my room is treated, and the reflections don't hit the shotgun like they would in a brighter room, so it sounds great, and my AT4053b sounds dark to me in that room. Both awesome mics by the way!

I am a videographer/audio engineer and do not sell anything or work for any mic companies. I just wanted this for my own edification, and Guy helped me do that, as it helps him. I really think the Rode is pretty sweet. The connectors seem sturdy, though the wire seemed thin. But it's so modular that you only have to replace the piece you break. I thought it sounded full but with good articulation in the highs while remaining smooth. As an audio engineer I like that, as I can color the track as I want after the fact, rather than having a hyped frequency I may have to pull out. Anyway I get used to whatever mic I'm using (as long as it's a good one!). To me the Tram was dark in the comparison. But today I shot a Yoga class, and used the Tram because I get RF hits there with my lowly Sennheiser G3, and the tram is my only mic wired for Lectrosonics. Long story shot - the Tram sounded awesome. Beefy yet clear.

So it's all relative IMO. Personally I would go with the Rode or Sanken over the Tram & ME-2, but I've used all and got very usable results. Can't stand the ME-2 now! Plasticy sounding highs...

That's it fellas. This is a new forum for me. I'll be poking around to see what's up. I'm a gear dork.

Cheers

Chad

[Chadfish]

Thanks for the kind welcome fellow sound nerds!

You know, I was kind of not wanting the Rode Lav to sound that good, as I spent 400.00 on the COS11D, but if I were starting from scratch I might go with a Rode. I still like the sanken better, but if I were watching my money the Rode is, as Rode usually is, great bang for the buck. If I needed to outfit myself with multiple lavs I would strongly consider Rode.  I'm a musician, and I record instruments and singing as well as dialog for TV ads or films. The thinking with seruous studio engineers (of which I'm not - I'm just a little guy with my own little home studio) is that Rode mics are maybe too "essy" in the highs. Brittle highs. That may be, compared to the expensive standbys like Newman. But it seems that in the video related realm Rode has got it going on. I recorded most of an album using the original NT1, and was pleased for the most part. My point is that I think people may be down on Rode because it's priced really reasonably, and that could bother people who spent 2-3-10 times as much on a mic. Yes their mic may be better, but with diminishing returns as to the ratio of money spent to quality gained. And remember, there is always EQ to mold a mic sound to fit in the mix. If your mic doesn't have the presence you wish it did, then give it more presence in post. Don't get me wrong, If I could afford much better mics I would be all over it. At the same tme I love "value" gear with great bang/buck ratios, and dang it Rode has that in spades. I get decent recordings with my stereo NT4, used my 2 NT3s a lot on boom poles and at the sides of the stage (with the NT4 in the center) for recording plays, my NTG-2 was decent, though darker than I like - though my friend Ty Ford likes it better than the NTG-3. I love my NTG-3, and it was acceptable to use on a project I helped out with on a PBS doc coming out in 2010. Man I even slap that on the old EX1 and walk around with that for home movies an it sounds great - even in reflective rooms. I'm rambling here about Rode, but dang it they are great mics. I may be accused for working for Rode, and I wish I was. I have steered so many people to rode they frickin' owe me BIG TIME.

Rado I just looked at that S1, and it looks sweet! Though 329.00 for a vocal mic seems steep when an SM57, a live standby for decades, goes for a C note. But I get it. It's a condenser and I bet it really sounds good. It did in the video demo on the Rode site.

And Jeff, thank you for the welcome. It is true that I don't have an agenda. But to be honest I am a gun for hire. If someone was to hire me to demo something it would be marketing to some degree, but I would not lie about my opinion in a shootout. If you look on my Vimeo page I've done some other shootouts just because I happened to have bought the item and I wanted to share my findings. If I have the time and I like something I want to make the video that I wish I could have viewed to help me make the decision. For me, there is no rental house up here in northern Humboldt County, Ca. There is no store with any of these mics for me to listen to. Everything I buy is based on web research.

OK, obviously I've had too much coffee this morning. If you have any questions please feel free to throw them out there. Though the only thing you should be asking is "Which mic do I like the best?" I wish I could do another 4 or 8 lavs to get a real listen to the biggest contenders, but it was hard just to get 4 going. I spent 2 days on this as it was!