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"You get what you pay for." Then you use it...


Mick Davies

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  •     “You get what you pay for.” but, occasionally, audio  recorded with prosumer gear makes it onto the screen (small and large). I read  a couple of threads where one person mentioned using a PCM-D50 on a BBC  production for ambience and someone else mention using a Zoom H4 on a Discovery  Channel production (didn’t specify what for as I recall). I’m wondering what  similar gear has been used on episodic television and theatrically released feature  films?

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Before going into this discussion, I'll be the one to ask about your background in production sound...Please introduce yourself, possibly in the "who I am..." thread...

I think it is fair to say that all sorts of material from all sorts of sources has made it into television and films.  there is much more to our work than many people, even experienced folks in the movie business, are generally aware of, and that extends to our choices of professional equipment.

there is another thread about "all digital audio is not created equal", and a lot of other discussions here, regarding MI (semi-Pro) vs production sound (fully professional) equipment, the advantages, disadvantages, the pro's and the cons...

so just where do you want this to go?? what are you really looking for, and why??

there are lots of excellent  values available in capable equipment, and in the end it is more about the archer than it is about the arrows!

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  • I’m wondering what  similar gear has been used on episodic television and theatrically released feature  films?

On the same lines as what Senator has said, there have been many instances where material has "shown up" in broadcast, movies, television shows, music videos, commercials, you name it, recorded on non-mainstream, semi-pro or consumer grade gear (and at times, recording techniques that are not commonly used or accepted) but so what? An interesting observation but beyond that I would hope that these occurrences would not unduly influence equipment decisions, used to justify straying from the professionally accepted mainstream gear before one is even aware of what the mainstream is. It is sort of like the neophyte who righteously declares they are "going to break all the rules" when it is obvious that they have no knowledge of the rules.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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On the same lines as what Senator has said, there have been many instances where material has "shown up" in broadcast, movies, television shows, music videos, commercials, you name it, recorded on non-mainstream, semi-pro or consumer grade gear (and at times, recording techniques that are not commonly used or accepted) but so what? An interesting observation but beyond that I would hope that these occurrences would not unduly influence equipment decisions, used to justify straying from the professionally accepted mainstream gear before one is even aware of what the mainstream is.

>>>It is sort of like the neophyte who righteously declares they are "going to break all the rules" when it is obvious that they have no knowledge of the rules.<<<<<

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

Well said, well said indeed. Unfortunately our "rules" have become a flexible moving target as the neophytes create a new paradigm that become the new rules until the next wave of neophytes start the process once again. Change brings challange, challange brings new creative ideas and a fresh approach to the process. All in all not a bad idea as the status quo is boring.

Eric

Eric

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  “what are you really looking for, and why?? “ No ulterior motives. “... it is more about the archer than it is about the arrows!” Agreed, I believe the Eurythmics and Timbuk3 were musical testaments to that in the  eighties.

“Rules. They say you need to know them to break them…” John Cage would have agreed.

“… I would hope that these occurrences would not unduly influence equipment decisions…” I have no desire to suggest, encourage, or dignify, the use of an H4n and SLR to shoot a feature for “theatrical release”. Nor am I a big fan of the Red, Viper, or much of anything else digital other than, so far, the Genesis in the hands of a disciplined camera department. Perhaps there is an overall corollary there.

“… as the neophytes create a new paradigm…“ “… the status  quo is boring.” I have mixed feelings. I’m okay with new paradigms when they  bring improvements. I’m okay with the status quo as it relates to a long standing tradition of standards that demand excellence. I’m not  okay with new paradigms that aren’t actually new (aka re-inventing the wheel). I’m not okay with the status quo when it stifles creative solutions that work with respect to high standards.

Kick drum mics such as the AKG D112 to record explosions, Sony TCD-D7 to record ambiance, Oktava MK012a  instead of… to use as a plant in a dangerous situation, Yamaha 01v mixer, Mackie 1202 as a temp sidecar, Pro Tools 003 interfaces, MBoxes for playback, et al. Experiences with these types of gear/situations are the things I hoped some would share.

Thanks for the replies.

Cheers,

Mick

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On the same lines as what Senator has said, there have been many instances where material has "shown up" in broadcast, movies, television shows, music videos, commercials, you name it, recorded on non-mainstream, semi-pro or consumer grade gear (and at times, recording techniques that are not commonly used or accepted) but so what?

I just worked on a little indie direct-to-video movie (long story), and the director was really proud that they had grabbed a few additional sound effects and background ambience with a Zoom.

I made a face and said, "great... but think how much better it would've sounded if you had two real mikes, two real preamps, and a real recorder?" (He was a friend, so I could be more honest and less tactful.)

I think the Zoom has its uses, but this was a $3 million indie, and the director should know better. The whole thing was shot on film, too. I told him, "this is the equivalent of shooting a piece on a Canon 7D and dropping the shot into the movie. Maybe most people won't notice, but you and I can notice." I think he grasped that eventually, the little tiny drops in quality may not be discernible individually, but it all adds up. I told him two $100 mikes and a 15-year-old DAT deck would do a much better job, depending on how it's used.

I really, really hate to see technical standards lowered. The only exception would be if it's a free shoot or a student short -- then I understand they gotta grab cheap gear wherever they can get it.

--Marc W.

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Kick drum mics such as the AKG D112 to record explosions, Sony TCD-D7 to record ambiance, Oktava MK012a  instead of… to use as a plant in a dangerous situation, Yamaha 01v mixer, Mackie 1202 as a temp sidecar, Pro Tools 003 interfaces, MBoxes for playback, et al. Experiences with these types of gear/situations are the things I hoped some would share.

Thanks for the replies.

Cheers,

Mick

Done ALL of the above at some point or another, and on big feature movies. Thanks, Mick, for clarifying your interests here. It is a good topic and I apologize for jumping in on you this way... it pushed a lot of buttons I think, new buttons, old buttons, buttons we maybe shouldn't even be pushing, etc.

-  Jeff Wexler

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" Experiences with these types of gear/situations are the things I hoped some would share. "

while I (we) appreciate the clarification, I'm still not sure what you are looking for, or why...

our jobs are largely "problem solving" so there are always a lot of adaptations going on, and many of them are discussed here on jwsound...perhaps you could put some specifics ("  record explosions, Sony TCD-D7 to record ambiance, Oktava MK012a  instead of… to use as a plant in a dangerous situation, Yamaha 01v mixer, Mackie 1202 as a temp sidecar, Pro Tools 003 interfaces, MBoxes for playback ") to your question and do some searches...

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"while I (we) appreciate the clarification, I'm still not sure what you are looking for, or why..." Again, I have no ulterior motives. I understand that times have changed on the net, as they have in the motion picture industry, and I have been posting on forums since the days of Gopher and Mosaic. My motives for posting on forums hasn't changed since then, however. Perhaps the original ideal of "the free and open exchange of information", has changed. Perhaps some have forgotten that ideal. Perhaps some never learned the rules of that ideal.

Cheers

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I seems to me, rather then parse what Mick was driving at, this is a good opportunity to discuss some of the newer and, perhaps, less conventional recording equipment available today.  If we are talking about using "pro-sumer" gear to replace our primary professional equipment, then I agree with others that this is a mistake. But if we choose to use this semi-pro gear to augment our kits for special use, I think there is a wealth of experience among us to share. 

I, for one, have carried and occasionally used odd-ball recording gear for all of my career.  I've got a handful of cheap and disposable mics for various SFX.  I even have a couple of ancient wireless' that are not afraid to die for the cause.  Years ago I always carried a Sony Walkman-Pro (hardly Pro). It was great for leaving on a podium to record speeches while we filmed other stuff.  And today I carry a Zoom recorder and an Edirol. They are useful for transcription and pretty decent recorders.  Just a few weeks ago I strapped my Edirol under a horse and got some amazing effects. Sure I could have done better riding the horse with my Sound Devices and a Sennheiser or used a Zaxxcom recording transmitter (if I had one and was willing to risk it), but I knew I had a small window of opportunity and thought the SFX would be cool.  They were.  I'm pleased I did it and my clients were pleased.

What is perfect sound anyhow?  It certainly isn't the sound not recorded. We are sound recordists, after all.  You lay down tracks with whatever you've got, wish you had more and better gear, and try not to make the same mistake twice.  Like to hear what others are doing and discovering. And by the way, rules are made to be broken - the bratty little boy in my soul.

Bruce

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I seems to me, rather then parse what Mick was driving at, this is a good opportunity to discuss some of the newer and, perhaps, less conventional recording equipment available today.  If we are talking about using "pro-sumer" gear to replace our primary professional equipment, then I agree with others that this is a mistake. But if we choose to use this semi-pro gear to augment our kits for special use, I think there is a wealth of experience among us to share. 

I, for one, have carried and occasionally used odd-ball recording gear for all of my career.  I've got a handful of cheap and disposable mics for various SFX.  I even have a couple of ancient wireless' that are not afraid to die for the cause.  Years ago I always carried a Sony Walkman-Pro (hardly Pro). It was great for leaving on a podium to record speeches while we filmed other stuff.  And today I carry a Zoom recorder and an Edirol. They are useful for transcription and pretty decent recorders.  Just a few weeks ago I strapped my Edirol under a horse and got some amazing effects. Sure I could have done better riding the horse with my Sound Devices and a Sennheiser or used a Zaxxcom recording transmitter (if I had one and was willing to risk it), but I knew I had a small window of opportunity and thought the SFX would be cool.  They were.  I'm pleased I did it and my clients were pleased.

What is perfect sound anyhow?  It certainly isn't the sound not recorded. We are sound recordists, after all.  You lay down tracks with whatever you've got, wish you had more and better gear, and try not to make the same mistake twice.  Like to hear what others are doing and discovering. And by the way, rules are made to be broken - the bratty little boy in my soul.

Bruce

Thank you Bruce.  I totally agree.  We could all argue til the end of time on what sound is better, this or that?

I always do my best to get the best sound I can.

But there is a saying in Canada.  "Martha in Moose Jaw will never know the difference."

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