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Sitting in on a post mix session.. OR.. production visiting post etiquette


Derek H

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Oh, that never happens in color-correction.  rolleyes.gif

I recently dropped by a final mix session when a director asked me to come by in advance of a color-correction session. After about half an hour, I had heard quite a few issues, but I could see the mixer was struggling to do the best he could in a limited amount of time (and money). At one point, the director asked me, "hey, so what do you think?"

If I’m on the stage and notice a problem that’s not my area, I wait for a break, and then privately point it out to the right person. (For sync, the dialogue editor, if there is one, or the mixer.) That way if they want to deal with it, they can look like the hero if they want to, instead of it looking like I’m trying to one-up them.

Also, I remember doing this one time when I heard dialog bleeding through the surrounds, which is usually a mistake. Turns out the director had asked for it. I was glad I didn’t say it to everyone.

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What do you mean by Voice of God?

Compare the quality of the VO in Apocalypse Now to the quality of Sheen’s production dialogue (on a good system). They deliberately made it boomy and close-miked to give it a very intimate, deep inside the head sound. Usually VO is very closely miked. I know on CASINO they used 3-channel miking on the VO to make it sound even bigger.

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"...on CASINO they used 3-channel miking on the VO to make it sound even bigger."

hmm, more information, please...?

I dont remember all the details, but I remember an interview where they explained that in order to get the VO as big as Scorcese wanted it they recorded with 3 mikes and mixed it LCR.

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If I’m on the stage and notice a problem that’s not my area, I wait for a break, and then privately point it out to the right person. (For sync, the dialogue editor, if there is one, or the mixer.) That way if they want to deal with it, they can look like the hero if they want to, instead of it looking like I’m trying to one-up them.

Exactly. I've done this with picture editors, too -- quietly snuck back in after everybody was gone and said, "hey, uh, I know this isn't my department, but I saw a really weird cut at this timecode." Almost inevitably, the editors roll their eyes and say, "you're absolutely right -- it makes no sense, it's a crap edit, and that was a 2-hour argument with the director that I lost."

In the case of VO narration: I'm reminded of how many studios used 416's for VO on trailers and TV spots, like we did at Complete Post for many years. That thing gets real boomy if you get three inches away from it -- proximity-effect city. And yet some people liked that sound...

--Marc W.

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Ok, I was just called in to visit a dialog mix session. The mixer wanted to make some notes about my production sound so I could improve my work next time.

These were his notes:

The boom on this first sample (C005_P01_T04.mp3) was considered highly compressed to the point of damaging the timber.

Fase issues on the second sample (boom.mp3). It's a single mike track with some weird comb filter effect caused by the the fact that the actors were facing a hard kitchen wall.

There is more...

boom.mp3

C005_P01_T04.mp3

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And finally, pre-fader lav channels were unusable because they were recorded too low...

I'm attaching only one of the lav channels because of attachments size restriction.

I was intrigued because I use no compression, only my beloved AD 147 limiter that acts from time to time at a 7:1 ratio.

But apart from that comb filter effect on my boom (boom.mp3), I could not spot those issues on these samples. ISO channels are pre-fader so they are supposed to be lower I believe. And I could not spot any high compression on sample C005_P01_T04.mp3.

But I recently began using only wireless booms so now I am not so sure of my settings and gain structure and it might be damaging the dynamic range on my dialog recordings.

I use the Sound devices MM1 preamp. The signal goes to the UM400 lectro transmitter, line level, gain is set to 9 o'clock. The -20dB led is solid on. When the limiter on the MM1 kicks in occasionally I still have some headroom not to trigger the tx limiter:

http://www.trewaudio.com/audioflow/2009/03/17/lectro-line-level-input-cable-recommendation/

I still think the mixer was kind of harsh on me but I got somewhat insecure...

Am I doing something terribly wrong and compromising the dynamics of the dialog?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Gabi Cunha

lav2.mp3

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Lav mix has fase issues on this one... And finally, pre-fader lav channels were unusable because they were recorded too low...

Phase issues? Was it being mixed with something else on the iso? Or are they just hearing comb filter artifacts?

"Recorded too low" sounds like a bogus excuse to me. I always record my isos a little bit lower than the production mix, just to provide a little more headroom (without limiting). I'll peak the production mix at maybe -10 or -8dBfs, maybe a little louder if it's a door slam or something. They can crank it up +12dB in Pro Tools. Do their knobs not move that far?

I would smile and say, "thanks for the comments. I'll see if this can be improved for next time"... but only to avoid confrontation. To me, a good dialog editor can fix this stuff. They may have a point about the compression -- 7:1 might be a little high, but it'd depend on the situation. I try to avoid compression at all and will (rarely) go for peak limiting, and try to let my fader fingers alone riding the levels.

--Marc W.

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Eric,

Those samples are the problem sections...

7:1 is the ratio of the peak limiter of my console (AD 147) that is occasionally trigged by unexpected high transients. The ratio of my portable mixer limiter (SD 442) is 20:1 and I still think it sounds fine whenever it kicks in.

Thanks for the replies. I think I'll pay him a visit.

Gabi

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" I use no compression, only my beloved AD 147 limiter that acts from time to time at a 7:1 ratio. "

oxymoron: 7:1 is compression

take the comments at about face value, and see what, if anything, you can do,  but don't let it get you much beyond that.  POST's job is to fix a lot of this stuff, and when they give a heads up to what they are fixing, we tend to appreciate it, even if we cannot change much.  In the person to person, private, give and take, you can explain your difficulties, too.   ISO's are helpful to post when mixed mic's cause phase issues, but wall issues are blocking issues you are forced to live with, and for post to deal with.

also, are you posting links to your original recordings??  maybe there were transfer/import issues on posts copies of the files??

In any event, I'd try to at least appear appreciative, as sometimes these complaints go to production exec's, and not to us!!  being argumentative is also not a great idea, as the topic  will stop being discussed with you, and instead be discussed with higher-ups...

beware: slippery slope!.

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" being argumentative is also not a great idea, as it will stop being discussed with you, and instead be discussed with higher-ups...

beware: slippery slope!."

Too bad I didn't read this reply before I went to the studio...

The guy still thinks my recordings are highly compressed and I got really nervous watching him turning those knobs up and down like a maniac, using 7 bands of equalization to "save" my boom tracks... I made no comments about that, but I still like it better when he bypasses all the equalization and we can hear the nice warm sound of the Schoeps MK41.

Than he asked if I was using the MKH 416 and I simply replied that I never use the 416 for interiors with hard walls. I said I used either the Schoeps hyper or the MKH50. He didn't know either of them, which is ok. He was not familiar with the term Comb filter either.

I left after that. 

Gabi

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Gabi,

It sounds to me like this person thinks he knows more than he actually does. I've dealt with people like that, and it is incredibly frustrating.

The only time I've heard phase issues is on a mono mix track that has multiple wireless systems, or wireless and boom mixed together, because the actors move around, and the mics move as they are talking, so you can get phasing issues, but you shouldn't hear anything like that on iso tracks at all. If they guy claims he hears it, and you are right there when he plays it back, and it doesn't, then I don't know what you can do other than get a third person with good ears to give it a listen.

In terms of sitting in on a mix session, I think it's a great idea for production sound mixers to just observe. I also think that it would be cool if they could also just observe a dialogue editor at work to see what actually happens with the production tracks before the mix stage.

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Than he asked if I was using the MKH 416 and I simply replied that I never use the 416 for interiors with hard walls. I said I used either the Schoeps hyper or the MKH50. He didn't know either of them, which is ok. He was not familiar with the term Comb filter either.

Doh! shakehead.gif

You did the right thing by leaving. I don't think you can argue with a guy this ignorant.

--Marc W.

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Ok. I just got a call from the mixer saying that he was sorry to have said that my lav mixes had phase issues and my ISOs were recorded too low to the point of being useless. He said he was just repeating what the dialog editor told him to explain some poor editing. He confronted her after my visit and asked for samples of the "problematic" mixes and ISOs and found none of the mentioned problems. Apparently he called me to complain about the tracks before checking the original files based on the assumption that the dialog editing was bad because the editor had no material to work from.

He still doesn't like the way my boom sounds and believes the wireless boom is reducing the dynamics of the dialog and producing a timber that somehow "could be better", but he was not able to elaborate on that.

But anyway he said "I owe you an apology" and I just liked the way that sounded...

Thanks guys,

Gabi

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Ok. I just got a call from the mixer saying that he was sorry to have said that my lav mixes had phase issues and my ISOs were recorded too low to the point of being useless. He said he was just repeating what the dialog editor told him to explain some poor editing. He confronted her after my visit and asked for samples of the "problematic" mixes and ISOs and found none of the mentioned problems. Apparently he called me to complain about the tracks before checking the original files based on the assumption that the dialog editing was bad because the editor had no material to work from.

He still doesn't like the way my boom sounds and believes the wireless boom is reducing the dynamics of the dialog and producing a timber that somehow "could be better", but he was not able to elaborate on that.

But anyway he said "I owe you an apology" and I just liked the way that sounded...

Thanks guys,

Gabi

Instead of "owing" you an apology he should just come right out and apologize, preferably in front of all the same people he slagged you in front of.  "Owing" implies he isn't really sure when or how he'll apologize, and he needs to do it right now--word spreads fast and he's damaged your reputation.  Re your boom mic sound--ok, he's told you he doesn't like it so much.  Fine, good to know.  But that sound is your decision to make, not his.  Having voiced his opinion (once, and in private) he needs to accept your decisions and get on with the mix.

phil p

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Instead of "owing" you an apology he should just come right out and apologize, preferably in front of all the same people he slagged you in front of.

phil p

That would be his boss, who owns the studio and is also my former college teacher...

Gabi

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Just a heads up:

My former teacher (the studio owner) told the mixer to call me this morning and apologise for the inconvenience. He told the guy that if he didn't like the timber of some of my recordings it was a matter of taste, not a problem to be fixed. And they both agree that this whole argument is not supposed to be discussed in any way in front of the client.

Gabi

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But anyway he said "I owe you an apology" and I just liked the way that sounded...

That's terrific! I can count the number of times I've heard from a client, "I'm sorry... I was wrong" on the fingers of one hand. Almost never happens. Usually, the best I hear is: "Oh. OK. Duly noted. Let's move on."

Sincere congrats on winning that battle!  clap.gif

--Marc W.

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