Jump to content

Need my damn picture!


Izen Ears

Recommended Posts

  Ok so everyone always pooh-poohed and said "Oh you don't need HD monitors I don't know any sound mixers who have them" but this was a year or so ago.  Maybe that was more true then than now.  Well I've had it up to here!  I cannot describe the problems I've had with various DITs and video assist guys over simply getting me a standard-def picture.  They always blame my gear and then it's fixed when they order new downconverters or DAs or some shit they shoulda had in the first place.  Once I ended up going days without picture for an intense dialog driven show and boy did my mixes suffer!

  So either I get my own downconverters and force production to rent them (which is totally doable just another stage of crap to work out), or I make the huge plunge and splurge on some fancy ass waste-o-money-but-wow-they're-cool rack HD monitors for $3500.  But if I bought HD monitors I'd want to also invest in an HD CAT5 system, a pair of balun boxes with connectors that are compatible with modern and at least near-future HD tech.  Component HD seems iffy, seems plenty of perfectly good HD monitors lack these outs whereas almost every HD monitor big or small seems to have HD-SDI and HDMI outs.  But then again the passive component balun boxes are pretty cheap...

  Is there a 2-channel HD balun system?  The only ones I've seen are single channel component boxes, or single channel HDMI boxes that require 5-volt power.  (The passive HDMI baluns are only good for 160' or something.)

  A video assist pal of mine suggested I get two Redbyte Decimator 2s and stick with my standard-def monitors.  He mentioned that Decimator 2s have HDMI outs, which in the future means I can save on HD monitors because HD-SDI-taking monitors are more expensive than HDMI.  This way I couldn't have my beloved CAT5 system, but I could run a double BNC of HD-SDI (he told me HD-SDI signal is strong and can go 150' or 200') and put the downconverters at my cart, and be ready for HD monitors when that day comes.  But then I could only go 200' on highly un-bulletproof BNC cable.

  Part of my love of the baluns is the whole 1000' thing, the rest is the whole 2-channel picture over cheap-but-nearly-bulletproof CAT5 cable.  Which goes back to downconverters at the village thing which means keeping the standard def thing.

  So what downconverters to purchase?  On my last Red show the Decimator 2s gave me an annoying intermittent flicker, a flicker that wasn't there with the AJA downconverters (some reclocker thingee).

  I know this is a lot of thoughts but the main question is do I get HD monitors or downconverters, and if I get HD monitors how do I get the signal/can I use CAT5?  It would be supercool to have HD monitors...

  Y'all (I know I'm not from the South but there is no other single English word for "all of you"!) must be having the same problems right?!  Same kind of imminent or recent decisions out there?

  Thank you very much I love this board,

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've got the same problem on a 2 camera red shoot I'm on.

I spoke to the AC way in advance of the shoot - told her I had simple SD monitors, and she said it wouldn't be a problem - that we could piggy back the SDI signal from the video village monitors...which doesn't work.

Other red shoots I've done there's always been a video playback/VTR operator.

Production doesn't want to rent the appropriate down converters - nor buy them.  I also see no reason to buy a fancy HD monitor for myself - I'm a sound mixer for god sake.

So - the solution?  One of the producers has a mini dv cam they're using for some behind the scenes footage - I borrowed it and set it up to see the monitors in video village - and sent that signal to my own monitor!  It doesn't look good at all - but I can see both cameras well enough on my 7 inch monitor.

-Greg-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figure that any new monitor I get has to take HD SDI just like other monis on the set.  The extra crap (downconvert etc) seems too flaky and failure prone to me, and requires DC voltages that my cart doesn't make.  The downconvertors also introduce latency, so if you really are mixing a difficult scene live you are always at least a beat behind while watching your moni.  There is also the exacerbation of the "audio-ahead-of-picture" problem that HD video already has--the downconvert makes it worse.  I'm doing smaller stuff now, so I can wait for a sensible HD moni I can afford--I'm not buying any more SD video stuff.  (On my shoots the video assist dept has either disappeared mostly or has gone all HD.)

phil p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last red show I worked on was heavy with extras,  which the AD dept wanted to keep track of.  There were downconverters, at the monitors, for both the A and B camera,  and a standard def transmitter for both. Getting allies ahead of shooting can sometimes get these kind of things done.  I was able to get by with 2 Remote Audio 702 monitors,  which are quite cost effective.  The ADs, makeup, and hair, all had their own personal monitors which reduced the traffic jam at the monitors. It also helped that production wanted to reduce the number of folks at the monitor. 

ao

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am shooting a pilot right now with the F35s.  When I spoke to the UPM about my deal, we also talked about the camera gear.  I told her to "make sure the camera package includes lockit boxes and downconverters".  I also advised her that if they were an extra line-item, I had access to the items and I could match the rental.  Both items were added to the camera package.

On my last movie, I bought a couple of RedBytes and rented them to production.  They had rented some new HD transmitters and receivers, which had built-in downconverters.  They sucked.  So most of the time I had no picture because they were hardlined.  With three hand-held cameras on zoom lenses I had to see what was going on.  The producers often wanted to look over my shoulder, so were also unhappy when I had no picture.  I paid for the RedBytes with the rental. 

Just so you are aware, the RedByte did not like the HD signal that traveled down 100' of BNC, so they lived on the video cart.

Some day, I imagine they will expect us to have HD monitors, but until then I let them know I require seeing a downconverted image.  I have not yet been refused.

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  Funny I read your post just after I posted mine.  I think the 100' could be a limitation, though it would be super cool if it could easily go through walls.  Perhaps then I could ditch the 200'+ long cable runs I need sometimes in order for the cable to be camera safe.  For the price it's worth the experiment, of course I'd need to have HD monitors or downconverters at the sound cart to try this out...

  I agree latency totally sux.  I've started instinctively bringing up wires when I sense the actors are about to speak.  I've thought about just getting a spy-cam rig so I could see the whole set all the time without lag.

  Mr. Greg Sextro -  I love the DV camera pointed at the village!  Hilarious.  I could use my old VX-2000 for that...  Hmm...

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I figure that any new monitor I get has to take HD SDI just like other monis on the set.  The extra crap (downconvert etc) seems too flaky and failure prone to me, and requires DC voltages that my cart doesn't make.

Yeah, I said the same thing. I went ahead and splurged on the Ikan VX9 a few weeks ago, and it's been OK so far. At least it can take standard def or HD, plus HD-SDI and HDMI. Not a horrible picture. The 9" was about the same price as the 7" (and only half a pound heavier), works fine with 12VDC, so I figure, what the hell. Two monitors is overkill for what I do, but I could see it for people who regularly worked on A&B camera setups.

I've thought about just getting a spy-cam rig so I could see the whole set all the time without lag.

I love that idea! Spycam on the sharkfin pole!

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once I ended up going days without picture for an intense dialog driven show and boy did my mixes suffer! "

once upon a time, we didn't have monitors...

use the force...

and might I mention, in passing that this is another reason that the sound local(s) should be merged into the camera's national local) as we are working ever more closely...

thing is, you do your best to get production to provide what you feel you need, and or want...

if they don't, you get to deal with it.

if you do as many of us do, and get all the tools we want/need, then we do our best to get rental for them --sometimes line item, sometimes it is just part of our package, which we hopefully price accordingly.

for a lot of us, the only way we will really be happy is providing our own stuff, and of course complaining about having to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Decimator Design 2

Australian made downconverter.  It’s a low cost miniature 3G/HDSDI to NTSC/PAL with Aspect Ratio Conversion: Anamorphic, Letterbox, centercut. Power supply included.  Rental prices are still at 95.00 per day on a 3-day week (2010 July), same as the AJA rates. New 2010 list $ 495.00.

http://www.decimator.com/products-decimator2.php

It downconverts to NTSC or PAL Composite signals and to HDMI, and de-embeds audio (no other flavors of SD, be it digital or analog) [september 2010 version will have audio meters]. Input can be either PAL or NTSC HD-SDI and output can be NTSC or PAL switchable composite and HDMI.

Has problems with 23.98 frame on HDMI… Perry Drogo says: “The Decimator2 will pass all formats of SDI to HDMI with the next Firmware update, which will be available at the end of October 2010 (It’s December and its still not here). For now it works as the Decimator 1 does fine for composite out at 23.98.”

Cable-length: HDSDI can now go up to 150 feet thru standard 75 ohm video cable. Special HD cable which does not have to be stiff can carry it 220 feet ( L-3CFW  - supposed to be the best for long lasting very flexible HDSDI cable - hard to get in USA)  . Good connectors are critical. on cables read:

http://wolfvid.com/datasheets/faq_cat5_cabeling_specs.pdf

Importer and Rep:  TECADS Inc.  Contact: Perry Drogo,

Phone: USA 949 597-1053, 23 Dellpadre street, Foothills Ranch Ca. 92610

Email: sales@tecads.com Website: http://www.tecads.com/FW_EXPORTS/DECIMATOR.htm

In stock at:  Alan Gordon, Sales guy is Ken 323 466-3561 in Hollywood

Owner:  Wayne Loucks waynel@alangordon.com

And Birns and Sawyer http://www.birnsandsawyer.com/search.aspx?srch=decimator

And Abel Cine

Also In stock at: Charles Papert http://www.charlespapert.com/  info@charlespapert.com c) 323-350-8822, rep for TECADS he is a Steadicam operator lives in Los Feliz and can give all round good advice.

Powerplug and special cables: there is a very unusual power plug on the Decimator. Look at it closely it is polarized with a little lip. You must align the lip on the plug with the hole on the receptacle for it to insert and hold!!! 

We make cables adapting to all cameras or fancy “Y” cables to Decimator and any transmitter. Most are $ 150.00 some more. Call we have most in stock. Wolf 310-822-4973.

Note: The RedOne Camera sometimes (often) has a jitter in its HDSDI output. This is not cured by downconverting, only by a good “reclocker”. Folks prefer the AJA HD10DA because it works while the 3G version of the AJA DA has caused some operators problems. Others insist on the Black Magic.

Signal Generator: http://www.decimator.com/products-3g-tpg.php $1200.00  not sure if there is a lower priced one available.  Check out the Decimator Design (Redbyte Design) 3G-TPG Test Pattern Generator. All format HD/SD with moving pattern and embedded audio in SDI. SDI outputs only no HDMI or analog video. Battery powered for instant signal source anywhere on set especially handy for checking cables and monitors with a known signal.

Blackmagic: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/miniconverters/

Have similar products, carefully check details, some say their products handle redone better.

AJA makes them too

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/478471-REG/AJA_HI5_Hi5_HD_SDI_SDI_to_HDMI.html

Others by  Miranda, Gefen, Kraemer etc…

its a changing world out there and digital ain,t cheaper or easier.. it can be better.

no way to get HD thru Cat 5. most Cat 5 boxes are wired incorrectly.

screw it all    wolf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  So Marc and Richard: how do you get your signal?  Must be HDSDI BNC less than 150'?  A 150' two-channel BNC snake?  I want to use baluns!  I love CAT5, mostly because I never worry about the cable!  I can let it live in the street, it gives me two pictures with one cable.  You must have had to invest in some serious BNCs, perhaps even the Canare crimper and all that good stuff? 

  I want to splurge on the HD monitors, but I can't get past having to go back to BNC.  I had so much troubles and expenses with those.  One wrong door closes and it's curtains for a BNC.  My original CAT5 is still running strong, after 15 or so door-mashes, I have about 8 patches where the CAT5 was busted through to the wires and some waterproof tape later and it still works as good as new.

  Oh and by the way the Decimator 2s did not output a flicker-free SD signal on the 23.98 Red show I just wrapped!  It was strange, one of the monitors was fine, the other one flickered.  Perhaps one was old and one was new?

  Oh yes - and to Senator and JW regarding flying blind: maybe in olden times with single camera shows and true rehearsals you could turn out a great mix without monitors, but with 6 wires and 2 booms to mix a 5-pager with no real blocking or rehearsals are you nuts?!

  When I've had problems with picture someone inevitably makes some snarky comment about how mixers were fine for decades without monitors and that us kids are spoiled these days, and it always irks me.  Yeah thanks to technology I can easily do what all mixers of yore could never do, and they had to do stuff differently because of technology restrictions.  So there, so what!  Gimme my damn picture!

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dan,

The CAT5 ideas about the cable sounds alright. I'm just worried about more work maintaining 'converters'.  I do have my eyes on Wireless HDMI also for the future, then I wouldn't mind maintaining 'converters' because If I didn't have a wire to keep moving around, that would be OK.  Plus, if your using more then one monitor, maybe it's starts looking more appealing too.  But does the CAT5 do HD??  I want to see a good picture, so I can look at small things on the monitor, and point out not only boom shadows, but perhaps camera in the reflections..

About flying blind.. Film making has changed allot over the last few years.  I remember when I first heard the term, "Video Village".. I went.. ".. a what??".  Why should we as sound mixers not be expected to also change with the technology, if it makes us better at what we do.  We have the tools.. use them..

-Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"  but I can't get past having to go back to BNC. "

get over it...

we don't get to change the laws of Physics, and thus must deal with technological limitations.  True, there will be advances in technology (count on them!) but until they happen...

" some snarky comment about how mixers were fine for decades without monitors and that us kids are spoiled these days,  "

well yes...

but we were spoiled in those days by working with real story tellers, who carefully planned their movies, understood the process (and exploited it very well!) and understood that moviemaking is a team sport!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  Senator - don't tell me what to do you ain't my faddah!  I hate BNCs and their vulnerability and always have - you can't make me like em.

  Still wondering what Marc, Richard, and all the rest of you do to get picture to your HD monitors.  I'm assuming BNC you dinosaurs.  This thread was to investigate alternatives to both HD-SDI via BNC and downconverters, since I would like to get HD monitors.

  Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ultimately, the solution should probably be wireless HD, provided they can come up with a standardized receiver that's cheap, rugged, and runs a long time on 12V. I'm thinking a $495 box no bigger than a portable hard drive. Make it the responsibility of video assist to have about four or five of them so video village gets it, the assist gets it, the director has a portable receiver, and sound gets one.

I agree that BNC (especially HD-SDI) is way inconvenient, even for SD. I've used HDMI, but the connectors are very fragile and you have to be really careful about overflexing them. CAT-5 makes a lot more sense, and at least if the cable gets snagged, it's cheap to replace. The problem we have on these cheap shoots (like a Canon 5D thing I just did this past weekend) is that the camera can either output a signal to the viewfinder or to the HDMI output -- but not both. Not a good solution for the ultra-low crowd.

This project presented some interesting challenges: the director wanted to monitor through a laptop (!), but we determined that if I fed audio to the camera, they got a groundloop hum if the laptop was connected to AC -- which makes no sense. The hum actually got recorded on the camera track (which was just a scratch track, but still). The moment we disconnected the laptop from AC -- problem solved. Maddening.

I told the camera op (a friend of mine): "It's as if these things weren't meant to be used for filmmaking!"  banghead.gif

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Thought I'd bump up this old topic.

I still use some SD monitors, and have had the same experience with flicker when using the RED Decimators. Short of popping for the AJA's, I was wondering if anybody else had any thoughts.

--Scott

<snip>

So what downconverters to purchase? On my last Red show the Decimator 2s gave me an annoying intermittent flicker, a flicker that wasn't there with the AJA downconverters (some reclocker thingee).

Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just recently upgraded to a SmallHD DP6. It does WAY more than I'll ever need, and was pricy, but it looks great. Most importantly, it was one of the few monitors to fit the very small space I allocated for it in my cart. I built a small passive switcher so I can have 2 switchable inputs. If I want to bring one of these vid signals via composite SD, I can even do picture-in-picture

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...