inspire Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 So I will order 2x TritonAudio - FetHead Phantom This will add 18 dB amplification/gain to my condenser mic and preamp And I will make a separate theme so as not to interfere another ‘Sennheiser Previews MKH 8030 figure-of-eight’ theme that is under way. I want to make several tests: 1. Using two Fetheads in the same chain (for shotgun Schoeps MiniCMIT GR) So I will get 18 dB + 18 dB = 36 dB Extra gain. I would like to use it to record from far away, for example in a zoo where I can't go very close to animals. 2. Using them for stereo microphones to get extra 18 dB (for my Shure VP88, two pcs are needed for this stereo microphone). Planned to record birds in the Matsalu National Park. The only minus I see is that I would like to have a bigger bandwidth: TritonAudio - FetHead Phantom Frequency response is 10hz-100khz (+/- 1dB) as they write in the specification. If anyone has experience with this, can be written here. P.S. I have a stereo microphone already, what does not need Fetheads, but Shure VP88 I think it needs more gain for such a thing. The subject will continue when these widgets are here in hand. Quote
Throwback Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 I can't think of any circumstance where I would want to run a FetHead with a condenser mic, unless wanting to up the signal at the mic for an extremely long cable run to the preamp. Putting the aside the question of impedance by using two FetHeads in series, I can't imagine why you would want to add 36dB gain to your Schoeps MiniCMIT, unless you have an extremely anaemic and noisy preamp: what are you using? The Schoeps MiniCMIT is a very respectable mic, but even with 14dBA self-noise an extra (nominal) 36dB gain over and above what any decent preamp/recorder can provide is going to make this very evident. There are significantly lower self-noise shotgun mics, but I suspect it's placement that will be the problem. As for a pair of FetHeads to give the Shure VP-88 another 18dB for recording quiet sounds such as birds, then again gain isn't your problem, but mic self-noise is all the more the issue: the VP-88 has a whopping 24dBA self-noise and is unsuited to the job. Cheers, Roland Quote
inspire Posted April 10, 2024 Author Report Posted April 10, 2024 I have much less experience with this than you do, that's a fact. But I can confirm that I need more gain with my Portacapture X8, as my gain knob is relatively high (in this situation). Of course, I can't confirm before the test is performed and it will certainly happen, as the gadgets have already been ordered. Yes, I also looked at the Cloudlifter CL-1, but it's more for non-portable work, although there weren't any significant differences. My favorite would be this: https://www.sounddevices.com/product/mm-1/ Maximum of 66 dB of gain, in eleven discrete steps Dynamic range exceeding 120 dB 10 Hz to 50 kHz audio bandwidthDynamic range exceeding 120 dB 66 dB of gain, now that's WOW!!! But I hope to manage it more affordably (Cheaper). Quote
Werner Althaus Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 5 hours ago, Throwback said: I can't think of any circumstance where I would want to run a FetHead with a condenser mic, unless wanting to up the signal at the mic for an extremely long cable run to the preamp.... yes, driving a long cable with a hotter signal is definitely one good reason, however there might be another one. I'm not an EE and for a long time the idea of stacking micpres has confused me but the explanation that I found recently made some sense to me, so here it goes. Apparently every OP amp's performance is restricted by the "gain bandwidth product" which basically states that for more gain we sacrifice audio bandwidth. If a cheap design is implemented in a prosumer level interface/ mixer then it seems possible that in order to achieve 50 or 60 dB of gain, bandwidth might be sacrificed. This certainly would shed some light on my experience with cheap micpres where the mic only sounds somewhat linear in a very narrow gain range, usually around 20-30 dB. In that case a second fixed gain preamp might yield better results. Maybe someone with more electrical engineering background can shed some light on my "cringe-worthy" attempt of an explanation. Quote
Throwback Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 32 minutes ago, Werner Althaus said: yes, driving a long cable with a hotter signal is definitely one good reason, however there might be another one. I'm not an EE and for a long time the idea of stacking micpres has confused me but the explanation that I found recently made some sense to me, so here it goes. Apparently every OP amp's performance is restricted by the "gain bandwidth product" which basically states that for more gain we sacrifice audio bandwidth. If a cheap design is implemented in a prosumer level interface/ mixer then it seems possible that in order to achieve 50 or 60 dB of gain, bandwidth might be sacrificed. This certainly would shed some light on my experience with cheap micpres where the mic only sounds somewhat linear in a very narrow gain range, usually around 20-30 dB. In that case a second fixed gain preamp might yield better results. Maybe someone with more electrical engineering background can shed some light on my "cringe-worthy" attempt of an explanation. Yes, a poor preamp may see HF response reduce at high gain and a FetHead would help in this case, but, if so this seems covered by my '...unless you have an extremely anaemic...preamp...'. I have no idea if the Portacapture X8 is that bad, though, evidently, it is rather poorer than the preamp/recorders used by those in professional production sound. Adding huge gain (36dB) to Schoeps MiniCMIT or 18dB to a VP-88 via an in-line preamp still seems like the wrong approach: a good preamp/recorder and very low-noise mics are the pre-requisites of good recordings of very quiet sources, coupled, needless to say, with decent mic placement. Quote
inspire Posted April 10, 2024 Author Report Posted April 10, 2024 This is the case with Portacapture X8, how the tuning is done: Adjust the input gain using the GAIN LOW setting first. If the gain is insufficient, switch to GAIN HIGH and adjust the gain. https://www.tascam.eu/en/tascam-mic-preamps I decided to experiment and I am very grateful for the recommendations and advice. I believe I can get one more experience. Quote
DanieldH Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 So, as I understand from the tech specs and the chapter about phantom power, this tascam X8 thing delivers 24V phantom power only. No wonder your professional mics arent hot enough. One shall be advised to be suspicious if a prosumer brand advertises phantom power without mentioning "48V". If some phantom-passthrough-fethead-cloudlifter-device works at all at 24V it will surely amplify the higher self noise of your professional condenser too. Get some external phantom box first. E.g. Ambient UMP or Xvive P1 to mention some different price ranges. Edit: I double checked, it does mention 48V. It might still be worth making sure that it is set to the right voltage. Quote
grawk Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 from page 29 of the manual, the tascam x8 has a choice between 24v or 48v phantom power. Quote
DanieldH Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 6 minutes ago, grawk said: from page 29 of the manual, the tascam x8 has a choice between 24v or 48v phantom power. Yes, thnx, I already edited my post. The German Referenzhandbuch v1.32 p28 only mentions on the option for switching it on and the warning: "Manche Kondensatormikrofone funktionieren möglicherweise nicht mit einer Phantomspannung von 24 Volt. " meaning "Some Mics may not work with 24V phantom power." Quote
Werner Althaus Posted April 10, 2024 Report Posted April 10, 2024 3 minutes ago, grawk said: from page 29 of the manual, the tascam x8 has a choice between 24v or 48v phantom power. Yes, Phantom power used (+48V, 3mA×2 load), the current rating of the Mini CMIT is 2.3mA, so no real issue there although far from a comfortable margin. Quote
tourtelot Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 In my experience, the FETHead boxes had a LOT of self noise. I used a set for a stereo ribbon for a short time and frankly, the result was un-usable for me. The Royer dBoosters were markedly better sounding, but still not close to the sound of a dedicated ribbon preamp like the AEA TRP (The Ribbon Pre). You get what you pay for. Simple gain is not gonna make you distant mics sound close. Sorry. D. Quote
inspire Posted April 11, 2024 Author Report Posted April 11, 2024 Just for your information, I have no problem if it's necessary to record from a distance of one to two meters, which is a common recording distance. I want to push the boundaries, for example, if the source is much further away (hundreds of meters, for instance). This is not a typical situation, and I want to know if Fethead would be helpful in such a case. My cable length is not long, and if needed, I can reduce it further because I can place my portable recorder close to the microphone (five meters or even less if necessary). However, I can raise my microphone(s) very high if needed, thanks to my highly adjustable stand. And I definitely want to experiment with that. Quote
Werner Althaus Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 getting clean gain vs noisy gain may reveal some audio signals that would otherwise be buried in the noisefloor but it will not give your microphone more "reach" Quote
Derek H Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 I was looking at these in-line boosters to boost the gain on my slate mic into the weak slate mic input of a 664 but couldn’t find one that says it would work with only 12V of phantom or had an external input. If anyone has one of these things (lots of different makes and models, I see Sescom has one now too) and a 664 and would be willing to do a test Is appreciate it. I ended up using an MM1 for the purpose but it’s way overkill Quote
DHB Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 inspire says "..I want to push the boundaries, for example, if the source is much further away (hundreds of meters, for instance)". I think what you really need, if you're recording from those distances, is (for stereo or M/S) a couple of parabolic reflectors. They contribute NO noise (they're not electronic) so whatever electronic audio boost you might use - if that's even necessary with a couple of dishes - they will NOT boost any electronic noise. But at those distances you'd need very careful aiming. And it'd be a bit difficult, with stereo dishes, to follow anything that's moving! (Must be a big zoo - safari park? - if the creatures are that far away.) Quote
Bouke Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 Disclaimer, I'm not a sound guy. But I do know (a little) about math and physics. A parabolic dish (with an omni in the focal point) would be my first option too. But for side, this will NOT do ANYTHING remotely related to the whole Side trick. Mind you, at small angles, sine equals tangent. (You might get away with a 'normal' local side mic, as the birds and insects at your location are probably the same as the ones next to the giraffe 300 meters from you.) Quote
DHB Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 "..for side, this will NOT do ANYTHING remotely related to the whole Side trick.." Absolutely, but I was thinking of a widely-spaced PAIR of dishes, to give a semblance of stereo, and pointed towards whatever inspire wants to capture. But, as I said, it'd be a bit difficult, with stereo dishes, to follow anything that's moving. (inspire wanted, preferably, to use Mid/Side, but I do realise that'd not be practicable with such a setup, so I was suggesting stereo as a fall-back.) Quote
inspire Posted April 11, 2024 Author Report Posted April 11, 2024 Anyway, one is in hand and another takes a few weeks, as the shopkeeper said. Derek, you have MM1, are you happy? Quote
Derek H Posted April 11, 2024 Report Posted April 11, 2024 MM1 is a great thing to have for problem solving. Quote
Philip Perkins Posted April 12, 2024 Report Posted April 12, 2024 These can be helpful, but I used my SM7 just fine for years before they came along.... Mine work more with our ribbons... Quote
inspire Posted April 12, 2024 Author Report Posted April 12, 2024 They have some examples under *Media* (although it's not exactly what I need it for): https://www.tritonaudio.com/fethead-phantom Schedule-wise, this weekend I'll be able to test my shotgun Schoeps MiniCMIT GR microphone, and more serious testing will probably come in mid-May when the second FetHead Phantom arrives. Quote
DHB Posted April 12, 2024 Report Posted April 12, 2024 I've just tried my Fetheads and Fethead Phantoms on 24v as well as 48v. Both types of Fetheads (inc Phantoms) work perfectly well on 24v. (I tested with a Neumann 103 which - surprise to me! - also worked on 24v, and with a no-need-for-power Senn 421). I heard no detectable difference when equip't was used on 48v OR 24v. YMMV (..Your Microphone(s) May Vary). Quote
grawk Posted April 12, 2024 Report Posted April 12, 2024 my understanding is the potential problem is at the louder end of things, so you'd probably not notice the difference in most testing. Quote
inspire Posted April 13, 2024 Author Report Posted April 13, 2024 I have planned to try to record my father's bees today/tomorrow (Together and without Fethead). They do not make too strong a voice and I want to record air movement if there is. I have recorded them enough without the fethead and of course there are no problems with it, but I want to see if I have some improvement now and I believe the answer is yes. The main thing I hope is the headroom thus that I do not work on the gain border and I hope a little improvement. Quote
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