A registered users CLIENTS WHO DOES NOT PAY database

[RadoStefanov]

Is this a good idea?

Are there any legal problems behind it?

It has been almost 3 months and I have not received a 4 digits payment.

I think if we start collecting information on flaky clients :

First we can avoid them,

Second they might start actually paying.

Please do not attack my idea. I am a little angry while writing this.

Have not got paid a good amount of money.

And also have not worked since the elections ended.

[Jeff Babb]

I also got hosed by a productions company for 4 digits.  I'd be happy to contribute to this database.  I made several comments on the discussion area of their IMDB page.

[Philip Perkins]

Is this a good idea?

Are there any legal problems behind it?

It has been almost 3 months and I have not received a 4 digits payment.

I think if we start collecting information on flaky clients :

First we can avoid them,

Second they might start actually paying.

Please do not attack my idea. I am a little angry while writing this.

Have not got paid a good amount of money.

And also have not worked since the elections ended.

I sympathize with you, but would warn you not to take action while you are still really pissed off.  The best start is talking to other crew people and vendors (as you are), finding out what you can about that prod co and then seeing what your legal remedies are.  Please don't consider personal confrontation or some kind of web libel campaign, those are only last resorts and are unlikely to get you your money.

phil p

[John Blankenship]

Rado,

Many companies "season" their payables which means they wait until they are paid by their client before they pay their vendors for a given project.

Your first action should be a polite and professional phone call to the "accounts receivable" department of the company in question.  Or, if you have a good relationship with the person you worked with within the company, you could email them and ask for them to check to make sure your invoice didn't "get lost."

I did the second of the above recently and received a polite email back from accounts receivable explaining their "pay after getting paid" policy.  Since then I've received one of two checks they owe me.  It's a reputable company and I have no doubt I'll get paid, it just requires some patience.  The check I received a couple of days ago was billed at the end of September.  The second one was billed at the end of October.

I liked working with this company, was treated well, and would like to work with them again, so patience prevails. 

I'm pleased to mention that I have many clients who pay quickly, and even a few who pay the day of the gig.  Being on the receiving end the majority of the time, when I hire a crew, I've made it a point to mail out checks within two days of receiving their invoice.

John B., CAS

[Eric Toline]

That "we pay when we get paid" is a red flag to me. It says that they don't have the financial resources to cover their expenses. I bet they don't pull that "we haven't been paid yet" crap when they have to pay the rent, meet payroll and all the other normal business expenses.

Eric

[John Blankenship]

That "we pay when we get paid" is a red flag to me. It says that they don't have the financial resources to cover their expenses. I bet they don't pull that "we haven't been paid yet" crap when they have to pay the rent, meet payroll and all the other normal business expenses.

In my experience I wouldn't call it a "red flag."  I've seen it as much, or more, from large, established companies as I have from smaller, potentially iffy, ones.  In the ad agency biz, this practice is pretty common.

Some companies do it but don't admit to it.

I'm not saying, I like it -- just reporting what I've experienced.

John B., CAS

[Philip Perkins]

In my experience I wouldn't call it a "red flag."  I've seen it as much, or more, from large, established companies as I have from smaller, potentially iffy, ones.  In the ad agency biz, this practice is pretty common.

Some companies do it but don't admit to it.

I'm not saying, I like it -- just reporting what I've experienced.

John B., CAS

It is a red flag.  I have to accept this too sometimes, but it is an indication that the company is living beyond its means, and possibly that THEY have clients who are gaming them.  I've been burned by this--put off and then the company evaporated.  It is one thing to "age" invoices, it is another to decide that they can pay you whenever they want.  I would keep up the polite pressure on them in the form of copies of the invoice (and what number copy it is), as well as calls once a month at least.  Sometimes a word to a clients' client is in order, if the situation has been going on long enough.  Business people generally frown on these practices, not because they have our interests at heart but because it suggests poor management. 

phil p

[Chris R]

That "we pay when we get paid" is a red flag to me. It says that they don't have the financial resources to cover their expenses. I bet they don't pull that "we haven't been paid yet" crap when they have to pay the rent, meet payroll and all the other normal business expenses.

Eric

It's even better when they DO get paid that they end up using the crews paychecks to pay their OWN bills

because they are so far behind.

Yes that happened to me last year, and just found out a couple months ago that they went under owing big bux to

people so none of us will get our money.

(and because of the huge amounts they owe major companies I know pursuing it would just be a waste of time for

the money involved)

So I agree that anytime you hear that its absolutely a red flag. Not to say they aren't legit and you won't get it

but its something to be aware of.

[RadoStefanov]

I was promised a pay the week after.

I told them that the end of the month is fine.

The producer has a company located in west Hollywood and a IMDB credit.

I did my research before I got the work.

I just got an email today apologizing that they forgot to send the check.

4th email saying the same thing.

Now here is the situation.

His client was a huge and very well known corporation.

During the shoot he used my phone to call the client and I saved it in my contacts.

Should I contact the client directly an complain about my payment?

[RPSharman]

Now here is the situation.

His client was a huge and very well known corporation.

During the shoot he used my phone to call the client and I saved it in my contacts.

Should I contact the client directly an complain about my payment?

No.  It won't help you to get paid, and it'll be a VERY awkward conversation. 

This business is about relationships, and sometimes they can start a bit rough.  They'll either pay or they won't.  That's the unfortunate truth.  I've sometimes waited a long time, especially with industrial shoots, but I have never gone unpaid.

I have worked on commercials when I have seen the spot on the air before I have been paid for gear (often on a net 30 days).

Robert

[Eric Toline]

My general rules:

1. Independent music videos and non US based production companys. CASH at wrap.

2. Out of town 1st time clients w/o a referral. Check at wrap.

3. Independent lower budget jobs. Cash at wrap or check on US bank.

4. Clients who have earned my trust. 30 day invoice.

Eric

[NMW]

I like Eric's approach, that is generally how I operate.  I will of course allow for 30 day invoices with established companies or people I have worked for in the past.  I am, however, in a bad situation like this myself.

I am owed a good deal of money by a production company that promised to pay in mid October.  They are telling me about various ways they are trying to get the money but it's just not happening.  Basically they operated outside their means as Philip described.  I'm not sure what to do about it.  It was for a cable show with producers I have worked for in the past (under a different company) so I trusted them.  Would anyone recommend taking legal action in situations like this?  It seems to me that if they don't have the money, they never will, so I'll never recover what I am owed.

[RadoStefanov]

CTRL + P

Print and hang at my office.

My general rules:

1. Independent music videos and non US based production companys. CASH at wrap.

2. Out of town 1st time clients w/o a referral. Check at wrap.

3. Independent lower budget jobs. Cash at wrap or check on US bank.

4. Clients who have earned my trust. 30 day invoice.

Eric

[Izen Ears]

  Hey man they make blacklists for us (thinking of the thread "a cautionary tale") why can't we make one for them?  I support a "do not trust" database I think if it's done right it would be valuable, VERY valuable since I know these companies will just keep doing it.  By done right I mean each person or company on the list would have supporting anecdotes and contact info, including the ability to update each listing and even take someone off the list if they shape up.

  It would have to be private or course, which these days is probably impossible.  But then again even a public list would be ok since it's not personal crap, it's just the facts about not getting paid.  Hell it could even be a TXT file that would be available to the members on this group, updated as needed.

  I have two gigs that each still owe me $100 from about 6 years ago, other than those I've been lucky.  Once I had to wait 2.5 months on a commercial for the same reason (which they didn't tell me at the time!) that they waited until the client paid them.  I've heard of many people who take that hard line, "if I don't know you I get paid on the day" and I think it's great.  I'm not that courageous, I've given people the benefit of the doubt and thankfully that has worked out so far.

  Dan Izen

[stacysound]

I was promised a pay the week after.

I told them that the end of the month is fine.

The producer has a company located in west Hollywood and a IMDB credit.

I did my research before I got the work.

I just got an email today apologizing that they forgot to send the check.

4th email saying the same thing.

Now here is the situation.

His client was a huge and very well known corporation.

During the shoot he used my phone to call the client and I saved it in my contacts.

Should I contact the client directly an complain about my payment?

Yes you should. Polite and respectful.

I did this with a known shady client here in Dallas. Upon calling his client, they sent me a check and took it out of what they owed my client. Done. Burned a bridge, but it was burned anyway. I got several ataboys from fellow crew members that had been burned by this guy before.

[studiomprd]

" meet (their) payroll "

this is a weakness, a risk, that goes with the "independent contractor" route...

"We pay you when we get paid" has been around a long time, and may be a red flag, or maybe not.  it depends!!

same thing about going over the production company's head, and contacting theor  (ultimate) client: maybe, if done right it will work.  of course this presumes a "real" ultimate client, and for that matter a real gig.  careful, there are "spec spots", and so-called pilots for xxx network that are merely wishful thinking by wanna-bees.

as for trying to maintain a list, beware! you could be sued for lieble and or slander, and you could lose! I've seen it happen!

sorry: it is not as simple as "plug'n play"

[Jim Feeley]

  Hey man they make blacklists for us (thinking of the thread "a cautionary tale") why can't we make one for them? 

I'm not a lawyer, but I've spent a lot of time with lawyers dealing with online, print, and broadcast libel issues. I figure a list/database with anonymous contributors might not hold much value (for example, negative comments could stem from personal vendettas, as we used to see on RAMPS, or some of the evaluations on Yelp). So we'd probably want people to sign their evaluations. Even if we were OK with anonymous contributions, someone would have to host or post the list/database.

Even more than accuracy, the big issue is liability. If a producer or production company gets wind of negative comments about them, they could potentially sue the person who made the comment and/or the person/entity that hosted the list/database. Even if the commenter or host/distributor would prevail in court, the cost of defending him/herself is a bummer.

Sure, the bad guys might not sue. But even in my semi-charmed experience I can think of a couple big clients who'd sue over something like that just for the sport of it...And they can afford to sue (even if they apparently can't afford to pay in 30 days). So it just becomes a question of how much risk does someone want to take on.

Ya, there's ways to work around all these issues. But I personally have other things to do. And I quietly ask friends and trusted colleagues about their experiences with particular companies and producers; that approach has saved me from some untrustworthy potential clients.

Sorry to be a damp rag, but that's what I think.

Jim

[John Moore]

What about a RFI (request for info) setup? You could enter the name(s) of the people you're researching & anyone who has worked with them can PM you their feedback... That way it would be private & you could be better armed for negotiating your pay. You could always amend/modify your original query with a "thanks for the info" so that others would know you got what you needed. You wouldn't need to inform anyone else about the results.

John

[studiomprd]

" What about a "

and you will be hosting this?

[John Moore]

Sure, Mike, I'd host it... I don't see the problem with a private system- no public info would be given. The requester would just enter the name of the company or individuals & then they would receive a private message from other members with direct experience(s)... Almost the same thing as calling up a couple of peers.

Just because a name shows up in the post doesn't mean that they are suspect- just that the original requester isn't familiar with them. No harm, no foul?

[RadoStefanov]

" What about a "

and you will be hosting this?

Yes why not. I am also thinking of copying RAMPS over to a WWW version.

[John Moore]

Yeah... on second thought, not such a good idea.

I feel like Emily Litella: "Never mind!"

John

[Izen Ears]

  Ok so forget the anecdotes just numbers on how long (if ever) it took to get paid.  That's not slanderous right?  The RFI sounds great also, really really great.  I would not host it.

  Dan Izen

[Jim Feeley]

  Ok so forget the anecdotes just numbers on how long (if ever) it took to get paid. 

Oh, that sounds pretty good and useful.

The RFI sounds great also, really really great.

Perhaps the first time in history that a sound guy praised RFI... ;-P

What we need is a mashup of Mandy's and Angie's List.

Maybe "Mangy's List...The place to find fleabitten producers"

Jim

[Bondelev]

I am very skeptical that a database would be possible and whether it would accomplish anything. You would be asking people to post facts only, and that would mean people listing how much they charge for services, which is pretty private info.

If anyone posts any false information, the owner of the board could be sued for libel/slander and may get sued anyway even if it is true. You would still have to pay lawyers to defend you even if you win.

There are plenty of bad clients in Hollywood, and plenty of good clients who take longer than they should to pay. I’m still waiting for a check from 2001. I even filed a union grievance about it. At some point you have to accept the fact that the money is gone and learn from the experience. I learned never to work for this company again, and began telling my friends (off the record) about my experience, only to learn that there were many others in the same boat. I think the web is much too public a place for that conversation.