Zoom F8 Mixer/Controller Options

[IronFilm]

33 minutes ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Iron Film, am I mistaken thinking this also controls the F4 and F6 (and the n / non-n versions of all)?

Correct. 

 

I've hooked it up to my F4 before, although of course the extra faders become useless, the F4 doesn't magically turn into an 8x ISO recorder with the F Control! 

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Correct. 

 

I've hooked it up to my F4 before, although of course the extra faders become useless, the F4 doesn't magically turn into an 8x ISO recorder with the F Control! 

 

Although I don't have an F6 (and thought I was 'too late' anyway re- getting myself the controller) I always thought the controller would be a wonderful tool to open up the use of the F6 even more than the obvious F4/8/n (although now, presumably, the ipad software also does just that).

[Philip Perkins]

How is the fader latency vs the iPad?

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

How is the fader latency vs the iPad?

From my recollection the latency felt waaaay less on the Zoom F Control than the iPad, felt more as if you were directly using the knobs itself on the F8n, but instead they're nice linear faders. 

[colinmk]

The zooms with the controller are excellent machines and the value represented from them is superb. Stick an SQN or something in front of the preamps and you've got an extremely solid system. Glad I picked up a controller at the time and happy to have this as a backup system or secondary system for multiple uses. Good to know you can still buy them too. 

[DHB]

Reporting back, after a week and a bit away..

 

Unless I’m incredibly stupid - which isn’t a stupid idea in itself - it seems that I completely misunderstood the use of the FRC-8 ‘Controller’ ..which I thought (..as it has eight, no; nine, faders on its surface..) that it was a recording MIXER - like an SQN, for example.

 

It seems though, that the FADERS don’t mix during recording (!) but only in post-recording RE-RECORDING - and to some optional external output.

 

The actual MIXING controls are just the duplicate circular KNOBS on the FRC-8, which exactly mimic the eight recording KNOBS on the F8 recorder itself.

 

Although IronFilm says, on the previous page (..about comparing the iPad app with the actual physical FRC-8..) “..if you're just setting and forgetting, then the iPad does very well indeed. If you need to do fast and high precision mixes during scenes, then the physical faders of the F Control are nicer..” ..it doesn’t actually seem to work that way for me.

 

Although the circular knobs on the FRC-8 ‘Controller’ are marked as ‘Trim’ (i.e; overall gain adjustment), and it would APPEAR that the faders go from infinity (no audio) up to 0db or beyond *within the gain parameters set by the Trim knobs*, the only way it actually works for me - and as it’s supposed to work, it seems - is that the KNOBS are for setting incoming signal strength (..what one would expect the faders to do..) and the faders are for re-mixing after the event!

 

Being used to broadcast and mixing (recording) faders on various mixing desks, or on my Soundcraft and other mixers, I thought the FRC-8 faders are for controlling INCOMING audio from mics, etc.

 

Apparently not: each input goes straight to its own track on the F8 ..AT A LEVEL SET BY THE CIRCULAR 'Trim' KNOB ON EACH INPUT.. and can be routed to Left/Right too, and to Master Outputs 1 & 2 (..and to Sub Outputs..) but the FRC-8 controller doesn’t make it EASIER TO DO LIVE MIXES, because all inputs rely on the (stupid) KNOBS ..just as on the F8 itself.

 

So you - we-ell, I - can’t use a couple of hands to live-mix eight inputs with the faders, but need a finger and a thumb on each appropriate KNOB to live-mix! ..Perhaps IronFilm can explain how “.. If you need to do fast and high precision mixes during scenes, then the physical faders of the F Control are nicer..” but they work, for me, only on REPLAY, just like the awkward-to-use ‘virtual teeny faders’ on the screen of the F8 itself. ..Doh!!

 

HOWEVER,

 

Using the Bluetooth iPad app as a controller, the virtual KNOBS don’t each need a finger-and-thumb to turn them, and can be ‘turned’ - onscreen - just by dragging a single finger over a knob - either up or down. So two or three adjacent virtual KNOBS can be simultaneously turned up and down by, say, a thumb and two fingers ..which is a much simpler way to control gain on three inputs than having to turn, say, three adjacent physical knobs using a finger and thumb on each one!

 

(..A restriction as with the FRC-8 FADERS seems to apply on the F8 itself: the virtual faders don’t seem to control input gain WHILE RECORDING, but only in MIXING post-recording. Huh?)

 

The FRC-8 doesn’t seem to have ever been listed, or referred to, by Zoom as a “mixer”, but only as a “Controller”. I’ve tried every permutation I can think of to send Fader-controlled inputs to recording tracks or channels, but the schematics - and unhelpful descriptions and wording - in the various Zoom manuals don’t anywhere clearly state that the “Faders”, whether physical or virtual, do control the input gain WHILE RECORDING. It looks like a fader-based recording mixer, but, apparently, isn’t.

 

So, in summary, both the iPad app and the physical FRC-8 appear to be ‘post-production mixers’ for use with the F8 (all three versions), whose inputs are actually controlled - physically or, alternatively, virtually on the iPad - by the circular 'Trim' KNOBS, one for each input, and not by the FADERS. (Perhaps the Faders work as one would expect when passing THROUGH to an external recording device - I haven’t checked that.)

 

It’s a pity, really - unless IronFilm can explain it better, and differently, than I can.

 

FINALLY, just to check latency with the iPad app ..I find I can’t now connect via Bluetooth since I did an F8 System Reset to see if that would implement the faders of the FRC-8 Controller. It didn’t, but it now seems to have disabled the - hardly documented - invocation of Bluetooth - done previously by holding in the Menu button (on the F8) for several seconds.

 

Now; nothing doing - no Bluetooth connection any more ..aaaarrrggh! ..As the iPad app for controlling things seems to give a better all round implementation - oddly - than the physical FRC-8 Controller, I’m really, really annoyed!

 

Sigh..

 

(Now away for another week ..more when I return ..if I haven’t thrown it through the window!)

[Paul F]

Long post and I didn't read it all. But I didn't see you mention anything about the L&R tracks.

 

Let's clarify functions:

 

The 'menu' knob on the F8 controls the gain/trim of each channel. A press and turn of the menu knob will allow the user to select which channel they are trimming.

The individual track knobs on the F8 are the faders. 

 

The black knobs on the FRC-8 have the same function as the 'Menu' knob on the F8.

The Fader sliders on the FRC-8 have the same function as the individual knobs on the F8.

 

As to functions:

 

The 'Menu' and FRC-8 black knobs control the trim/gain of individual channels on their individual ISO tracks. That is not a mix and not intended to be a mix.

The individual track knobs on the F8 and the faders on the FRC-8 are the mixing function that provides a mix to the main outputs, the sub-outputs, and the L and R tracks. 

 

They function just as a broadcast panel would. The trim at the top of a mix console sets the gain that is largely left alone during the show and the faders bring talent in and out as the show progresses and in the case of a film set, provide a mixed L&R track. 

 

 I've abandoned the use of L & R tracks and just use the ISO tracks. I don't mix.  I set levels before the scene starts and almost always leave the knobs alone, except in special circumstances. Since each channel is an ISO track, it doesn't matter if a talent off screen has a hot mic. 

 

Oh, and if you would please, let me know your address and when you plan to throw the FRC-8 out your window. 😀

 

[IronFilm]

@DHB You should have it set up so that your ISO tracks are pre-fader, and your LR is post-fader. (and presumable you've also enabled recording of your mix too) 

 

That's the natural common sense way to do this. 

 

Perhaps you're screwed around badly with your settings, and got into some weird setup, it could be a good idea to simply do a factory reset of your settings. 

 

Then F Control circular knobs will be your trims, and your linear sliders will be your faders for doing your mix. Easy!

[DHB]

"..it could be a good idea to simply do a factory reset of your settings.." ..That's what I did, and it screwed up my Bluetooth, and just about everything else!

[DHB]

@ Paul F..

 

"..The individual track knobs on the F8 are the faders.." indeed they are, so I (stupidly?) thought that the FRC-8 *faders*  would be the faders instead of the darned black knobs.

 

"..The black knobs on the FRC-8 have the same function as the 'Menu' knob on the F8.." ..Huh? On my FRC-8 the individual track knobs have the same function as their corresponding black knobs on the F8. And the 'Menu' knob on the FRC-8 has the same function as the 'Menu' knob on the F8.

 

"..The Fader sliders on the FRC-8 have the same function as the individual knobs on the F8.." ..I do wish they did ..that's what I got it for. I've, so far, tried every combination and permutation of pre-fade / post-fade / L/R / Main Out etc, and the physical faders just fade the audio to my cans, but NOT to the SD card recordings.

 

"..They [..the faders..] function just as a broadcast panel would. The trim at the top of a mix console sets the gain that is largely left alone during the show and the faders bring talent in and out as the show progresses and in the case of a film set, provide a mixed L&R track. ." ..Yup, that's what I WANT them to do. But I'm thinking "..just get a set of TRACK-E mics (I have three at present) and don't even think of  bothering with faders.

 

".. I've abandoned the use of L & R tracks and just use the ISO tracks. I don't mix." That's what I mean.

 

Anyway, I'm away again - briefly - and (..if I HAVEN'T thrown it out of the window..) I'll persevere when I get back ..and will persevere with this new nuisance of no Bluetooth after a Factory Reset ..aaaarrrgggh.

 

Richmond, and I shall let you know when I plan to throw it out the window.

 

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, DHB said:

"..The individual track knobs on the F8 are the faders.." indeed they are

From memory, there is a setting in the F8 Series you can tweak to make them be trim or faders. As it's been ages since I used my F8n, but from memory I'd sometimes when OMB with the F8n just have the track knobs be set to be my trims and let automix handle the mix as I'm booming at the same time!

8 hours ago, DHB said:

 

so I (stupidly?) thought that the FRC-8 *faders*  would be the faders instead of the darned black knobs.

 

They are. The linear faders are the faders. 

The rotary knobs are for trim.

8 hours ago, DHB said:

and the physical faders just fade the audio to my cans

So? That's a sensible way for it to be, the faders should impact what you're hearing. 

(by the way, you know you can change the settings for how your headphones monitor behaves?)

8 hours ago, DHB said:

but NOT to the SD card recordings.

Yes, your faders should not impact your ISO recorders. Would be dangerous if it did!
(but it will impact your mix, have you enabled the mix to be recorded too?)

9 hours ago, DHB said:

But I'm thinking "..just get a set of TRACK-E mics (I have three at present) and don't even think of  bothering with faders.

You can't monitor them then? And would be bad news for everyone else on set who needs to listen to the dialogue! 

9 hours ago, DHB said:

..and will persevere with this new nuisance of no Bluetooth after a Factory Reset ..aaaarrrgggh.

Just turn it back on after a factory reset, easy. (I presume it's probably by default set to be off, probably a good default decision? Cut down on the RF pollution a little, and last a little less battery power)

[codyman]

It will be interesting to see what Zoom does next.  I feel like they need to make a proper 8 channel recorder that has 8 gain pots / 8 faders AND/OR go big and make a 16 channel.  Keep it analog, even if that means 16x TA3's or something.  Hell, a 16 channel bit box under $2k would be sweet.

[Paul F]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

From memory, there is a setting in the F8 Series you can tweak to make them be trim or faders. \

 

 

 I can't find anything in the manual about that and the block diagrams don't show anything either. I'd like that feature.  Using the menu knob to trim is frustrating. Would you care to jog your memory a bit more?

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, codyman said:

It will be interesting to see what Zoom does next.  I feel like they need to make a proper 8 channel recorder that has 8 gain pots / 8 faders

So 16 in total? Damn, that would be quite big! 

 

Maybe if they brought out the Zoom F4 "done right" (a "Zoom F4n", because the F6 was not a replacement for the F4), perhaps very slightly wider for two micro sized faders for 5/6, and using 2x TA3M for the extra inputs rather than their proprietary Zoom extension for 5/6

 

Thus this better & more capable F4n would allow space to go bigger/better with Zoom F8n Pro mk2 (or maybe even a couple of channels more? Or make it a round dozen?) that gave us 8x faders + 8x trims + 8x AES I/O???  As such a thing would have to be at least 50% wider. 

 

What do with all that extra length? Maybe carve out space underneath for XLR inputs like the Nomad does? 

 

Could have the left side of the F8n Pro mk2 being 4x XLR, with 4x XLR underneath (like a Nomad), then the right side being fully dedicated to outputs (full size L&R!) and the SD card slots. 

 

 

6 hours ago, codyman said:

AND/OR go big and make a 16 channel.  Keep it analog, even if that means 16x TA3's or something.  Hell, a 16 channel bit box under $2k would be sweet.

There were unfounded rumors ages ago about maybe "a Zoom F12" or something like that with a higher track count coming out. But clearly nothing came of it. 

The closest equivalent is kinda the Zoom LiveTrak L20:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1419884-REG/zoom_livetrak_l_20_20_channel.html 

A massive twenty inputs for under US$900!!

 

But I wish it was in a bag friendly format (perhaps with a ten channel Zoom F Control, with the option to use two of them together at once!) and had timecode.  As having sixteen channels from the Zoom F Series would be very nice indeed. 

 

4 hours ago, Paul F said:

 

 I can't find anything in the manual about that and the block diagrams don't show anything either. I'd like that feature.  Using the menu knob to trim is frustrating. Would you care to jog your memory a bit more?

I looked it up for you 🙂 Took me barely two seconds to find in the manual, page 45: https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F8nPro2.pdf 

[Rick Reineke]

Quote

From memory, there is a setting in the F8 Series you can tweak to make them be trim or faders. \

F8n manual, Page 76

[Paul F]

Brilliant! I have the F8 and it does not have this option in the manual. But I updated the firmware a while back and there it is.

 

Thanks Rick, Iron. 

[IronFilm]

Glad it's resolved now! 🙂

It's worthwhile noting that the OG F8 / F8n / F8n "Pro" are all essentially very close to identical when it comes to the software they're running. (of course there are a few very small hardware differences between them, and minor other stuff like having 32bit or not). 

So generally speaking if you read about a feature / workflow in any one of them then you can probably do it in the others too. 

[DHB]

OK, back now - I’ve worked it out.

 

I know why the FRC-8 F-Controller was abandoned by Zoom: it just isn’t what it purports to be, and those customers who DID buy it must have been so annoyed and disgusted by it that more were returned for their money back than Zoom could cope with, so they cancelled the manufacturing order.

 

The Bluetooth-operated iPad Controller is far better ..except that having done a Factory Reset to make everything work better, now the F8’s Bluetooth is completely [expletive deleted], so the iPad version is impossible to get working again! ..Grrrrrr!  [Bangs head on wall.]

 

Let me explain: on the F8 itself - and this is how I’d been happily using it, till I bought the [expletive deleted] FRC-8 Controller - there’s a small knob for every Input, and that controls the recording level. In one of the Menus, you just set ‘KNOB’ to ‘✔️ Fader’ ..and for each Input which you use, that knob fades the audio up and down. (The rotatable ‘Menu Choice’ knob then becomes the ‘Trim’ or overall ‘Gain’ knob for each Input when you press that Input’s Pre-Fade button ..which brings up all the details for that particular Input, shows the current Gain setting for that Input, and you can thus set the basic audio level for that Input, and that Input’s Big Knob - excuse the expression - then fades up from silent to the max which you’ve set with that Input’s (virtual) ’Gain’ knob).

 

All fine and dandy, and that’s how I’ve always used it ..unless I used the iPad to control it, as that has the very useful horizontal L/R panning sliders on it: instead of fiddling with the Menu Knob, and Pre-Fade, to step between all the functions for each Input channel and thereby pan the Input from L100 to R100, with Centre in the (virtual) middle, of course.

 

But then I had this stupid idea to buy the FRC-8 USB-wired ‘Controller’ ..seduced by its sliding ‘Faders’ which seemed a so much simpler way to control the Inputs, just like you would with any Mixer.

 

Ah! ..but that’s the difference: it LOOKS like a Mixer ..but it ain’t: it’s a ‘Controller’ ..devised by some capricious, hellish, nincompoop to fool gullible but serious recordists like me into thinking that it’s an Input MIXER! ..It’s [expletive deleted] NOT!

 

The Faders are for headphone monitoring or for playback and re-mixing what’s been already recorded. They DO NOT mix the Inputs while recording - unless sending out to some (Main Out or Sub Out) External Device for recording, or sending audio elsewhere.

 

Only the circular KNOBS - just like on the F8 box itself - set the actual live recording levels! ..Though those BIG KNOBS aren’t all that big; they’re small and fiddly, just like the ones on the actual F8 box. The Faders do look nice and big ..bigger than the BIG KNOBS.. but they’re just eye-candy, or “the mug’s eyeful”, as Alan Sugar (onetime UK electronics mogul) puts it. The big Faders are just a come-on ..they make you think it’s an Eight-Input MIXER (..like you’d use an SQN, or a Nagra Mixer, or a studio mixing desk, or an old Bang & Olufsen 2000 deLuxe tape machine, or a Revox A700 tape machine..) but they work like a Re-Recording Mixer ..as their printed schematic incontrovertibly shows!

 

So now I’m going to (a) dismantle this absolute waste of cash, and see if I can re-route the Faders into the BIG KNOB circuitry, so that they DO work as actual recording level faders, with the Big Knobs just to set the absolute Gain levels, or else (b) gut and cannibalise the FRC-8 to fit its Faders into some other kit.

 

No wonder Zoom abandoned this contraption ..it PROMISED to be an impressively simpler interface for the F8, but it isn’t. It’s useful only if you’re actually recording to some External Device (backup storage, external audio send) or re-mixing what’s already been Saved.

 

Now all I have to do is re-enable that missing F8 Bluetooth capability (re-download the previous System Update maybe?) so I can go back to using the far better iPad-based ‘Controller’.

 

You think you want the tempting, ‘unobtainable’ FRC-8 Controller? ..No. It’s not salvation ..it’s an abomination!

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

I'm confused ... why do you expect the input iso tracks to be recorded post-fader?  That's not a normal workflow.  The faders control levels to the mix bus, which in the F8 is hard-wired to the output.  This is how a mixer works.  You mix to a mix bus, and the faders control what's on that mix bus.  On fancier mixers, sometimes you can send the fader to more than one mix bus, but the F8 is a pretty low-end recorder, so you can only send the faders to two mix busses (output L & R).  This is how all those old-school analogue mixers you referred to work:  The faders control levels on the mix bus, and direct outputs (aka inserts or sends), if there are any at all, are sent pre-fader.  This is precisely so that they can be sent elsewhere without being affected by your mix.  Traditionally they were used for outboard effects (EQ, compression) that need to affect a single channel before it reaches the main mix.

I don't understand how or why you are even trying to "mix" your isos using the faders.  How would you even attempt to do that?  It's not like you can listen to eight tracks simultaneously.  Listen to the mix bus, make your mix on the mix bus, and let the isos be isos.  There's zero reason to adjust the levels live on the isos except to make sure they aren't clipping, or perhaps ride the gain slightly during extremely dynamic scenes.  But you can ride the gain just fine while listening to the mix.  It sounds to me like you don't understand what trim / gain actually does or when you actually need to adjust it.

I feel your rage, but to be honest, it sounds to me like you aren't using the F8 as it is intended to be used because your workflow is ... non-standard.  If you absolutely must use your post-fader iso workflow, the F8 isn't the right mixer for you; get a different mixer that lets you assign tracks more freely (Zaxcom & Sound Devices will let you set up post-fader isos, if that is what you really want).  But don't blame the F8 ... and especially don't blame the FRC-8.  It is operating correctly.  The problem is you aren't using it as intended (and your it isn't the right tool for the way you want it to work).

[DHB]

Well, DocSoundGuy, that’s not the way I’ve ever worked. So - to me - it’s not “intuitive”.

 

You’re saying the ISOs are ‘set-and-forget’. “There's zero reason to adjust the levels live on the isos except to make sure they aren't clipping, or perhaps ride the gain slightly during extremely dynamic scenes”. That’s how I work: “..ride the gain slightly during extremely dynamic scenes”.

 

IronFilm says (on the previous page) “..if you're just setting and forgetting, then the iPad does very well indeed. If you need to do fast and high precision mixes during scenes, then the physical faders of the F Control are nicer. Or what if you wish to be able to mix just by feel without looking down at your control surface while you keep your eyes focused on the video monitor(s)? Then the F Control is vastly preferable to the iPad”.

 

I assume, DocSound, that you’re recording to deliver what I’d call ‘Raw’ audio, and leaving those ‘Raw’ ISOs to be re-mixed later by the Re-Recording Mixer - along with music, dog barks, panning, and all the usual audio cookery.

 

But I’m generally a one-man-band, and don’t want to spend - although I do - hours in re-mix and editing, taking the raw material and ‘re-modelling’ from raw audio. I generally mix ‘on-the-fly’, so that I’ve got the mix I want in real time. I’m not the cog in the machine; I AM  the machine.

 

To avoid the live knob-twiddling while capturing audio, I’ve migrated to TRACK-E 32-bit float devices ..so I don’t have to even *think* about possible overload, or too quiet a diminuendo giving too much noise-to-signal. All I do is then line up the audio with the video in edit, possibly raise or lower the levels, mute unwanted tracks, and Bob’s your uncle!

 

With multiple sources - with a Nagra, or PortaDAT, or any previous formats, or Deva or 744 - I mixed as I recorded, to leave less work for later.

 

You say “..The problem is you aren't using it as intended (and … it isn't the right tool for the way you want it to work)”.

 

Yup, you’re right:

 

It’s clearly not the right tool for the way I work. I work ‘live’ ..making as much of the final mix ‘in the moment’ to save going over the same thing later. I don’t hand over my tracks to someone else to mix or sweeten after the event.

 

I’ll have a word with the re-recording mixer (Me) and see if he wants to change the way we work (I doubt it) and both he and I think that I/We bought the wrong device for Us. Or else one - or both - of Us will re-wire the actual faders to become the Gain knobs. Or We’ll just forget all about it, and use more TRACK-Es.

 

With many thanks for your comprehensive response.

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, DHB said:

I know why the FRC-8 F-Controller was abandoned by Zoom: it just isn’t what it purports to be, and those customers who DID buy it must have been so annoyed and disgusted by it that more were returned for their money back than Zoom could cope with, so they cancelled the manufacturing order.

No, that's not even slightly true. 

The Zoom F Control is widely loved by those who use it, and was seen as one of the many great features of the F Series. Even though I now have a Sound Devices 8 Series as my primary recorder I still miss the most from my Zoom F8n that lovely F Controller and wish I could use it with Sound Devices!

 

14 hours ago, DHB said:

But then I had this stupid idea to buy the FRC-8 USB-wired ‘Controller’ ..seduced by its sliding ‘Faders’ which seemed a so much simpler way to control the Inputs, just like you would with any Mixer.

 

Ah! ..but that’s the difference: it LOOKS like a Mixer ..but it ain’t: it’s a ‘Controller’ ..devised by some capricious, hellish, nincompoop to fool gullible but serious recordists like me into thinking that it’s an Input MIXER! ..It’s [expletive deleted] NOT!

It's a control surface for doing mixes with. 

The Zoom F Control works in the same general manner as the mixing control surfaces from Sound Devices / Tascam / Aaton / Sonosax / Zaxcom / etc work for their recorders as well. (and the F Control does it at less than a tenth of the price of some of the competition: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1548965-REG/sound_devices_cl_16_linear_fader_control.html or https://www.gothamsound.com/product/mix-16 , although of course the Zoom F Control is for a lower track count and less features)

 

If you can't get the Zoom F Control to work for you, then I expect you'd find yourself very unhappy with any of these much more expensive professional products as well. 

 

I very much so believe it's a problem with how you're using it and how you perceive the workflow to be, than any product flaws with the F Control itself. 

 

Would highly recommend you sit down and read the manual from start to finish for your recorder. You'll have a 100x better understanding of it, and what it can do, and you'll then be able to answer most of your questions yourself. 

 

https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F8nPro2.pdf  (from a software perspective, the F8 / F8n / F8n Pro are all almost identical) 

 

 

14 hours ago, DHB said:

The Faders are for headphone monitoring or for playback and re-mixing what’s been already recorded. They DO NOT mix the Inputs while recording - unless sending out to some (Main Out or Sub Out) External Device for recording, or sending audio elsewhere.

Well yes, what else are you using the mix for??? As you're either doing the mix so as to be sent elsewhere (such as to camera, or for others to listen to on set), or you're doing the mix so it can be recorded (perhaps so it can used in the dallies), or you're doing both.

 

Plus of course you're doing the mix for your own sake, to listen to. 

 

All of which the Zoom F Control is perfect for. 

 

14 hours ago, DHB said:

So now I’m going to (a) dismantle this absolute waste of cash, and see if I can re-route the Faders into the BIG KNOB circuitry, so that they DO work as actual recording level faders, with the Big Knobs just to set the absolute Gain levels, or else (b) gut and cannibalise the FRC-8 to fit its Faders into some other kit.

I very strongly recommend you don't do that, you're more likely to just irreversibly damage it. And it will then be worth mere pennies on the dollar as spare parts. 

14 hours ago, DHB said:

You think you want the tempting, ‘unobtainable’ FRC-8 Controller? ..No. It’s not salvation ..it’s an abomination!

No, the Zoom F Controller is better than sliced bread in my personal opinion

7 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

I'm confused ... why do you expect the input iso tracks to be recorded post-fader?  That's not a normal workflow.

I agree, feels like what DHB is trying to do is very weird? 

 

7 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

  The faders control levels to the mix bus, which in the F8 is hard-wired to the output.  This is how a mixer works.  You mix to a mix bus, and the faders control what's on that mix bus.  On fancier mixers, sometimes you can send the fader to more than one mix bus, but the F8 is a pretty low-end recorder, so you can only send the faders to two mix busses (output L & R). 

Your general comments are correct, but the points about the F8 Series isn't correct. 

As you can send it post fader but also pre fader too if you wish. And you don't just have the main L & R mixes but you can do two sub mixes as well. It really does have quite a lot of flexibility and I/O :-) 

7 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

I don't understand how or why you are even trying to "mix" your isos using the faders.  How would you even attempt to do that?  It's not like you can listen to eight tracks simultaneously.  Listen to the mix bus, make your mix on the mix bus, and let the isos be isos.  There's zero reason to adjust the levels live on the isos except to make sure they aren't clipping, or perhaps ride the gain slightly during extremely dynamic scenes.  But you can ride the gain just fine while listening to the mix.  It sounds to me like you don't understand what trim / gain actually does or when you actually need to adjust it.

Exactly! Otherwise what's even the point in having separate trims / faders??? 

 

7 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

I feel your rage, but to be honest, it sounds to me like you aren't using the F8 as it is intended to be used because your workflow is ... non-standard. 

Yes, very "non-standard". 

2 hours ago, DHB said:

That’s how I work: “..ride the gain slightly during extremely dynamic scenes”.

Sure, but extremely dynamic scenes would be by their definition the minority of what you're doing. 

And even so, you might only change the trim once or thrice during such a scene. Unlike the faders which you'll be actively mixing throughout the scene. If you did the same with the trims you're creating a world of pain for Post! Surely not, as you want to make their life easier, not harder. 

2 hours ago, DHB said:

I generally mix ‘on-the-fly’, so that I’ve got the mix I want in real time.

As do we all strive to do that as well. That is what the faders are for. 

2 hours ago, DHB said:

To avoid the live knob-twiddling while capturing audio, I’ve migrated to TRACK-E 32-bit float devices ..so I don’t have to even *think* about possible overload, or too quiet a diminuendo giving too much noise-to-signal. All I do is then line up the audio with the video in edit, possibly raise or lower the levels, mute unwanted tracks, and Bob’s your uncle!

They're not wireless though?? How can you do a live mix of the scene with them??? You can't! 

Using Tentacle Track E bodypack recorders is contradictory to your previous statement of wanting a real time mix. 

2 hours ago, DHB said:

It’s clearly not the right tool for the way I work. I work ‘live’ ..making as much of the final mix ‘in the moment’ to save going over the same thing later. I don’t hand over my tracks to someone else to mix or sweeten after the event.

That. Is. Why. You. Need. The Zoom. F Control.  

 

Because as I said before:

2 hours ago, DHB said:

IronFilm says (on the previous page) “..if you're just setting and forgetting, then the iPad does very well indeed. If you need to do fast and high precision mixes during scenes, then the physical faders of the F Control are nicer. Or what if you wish to be able to mix just by feel without looking down at your control surface while you keep your eyes focused on the video monitor(s)? Then the F Control is vastly preferable to the iPad”.

 

 

2 hours ago, DHB said:

Or else one - or both - of Us will re-wire the actual faders to become the Gain knobs.

It's not a case of simply rewiring a few cables, it would require substantial reprogramming too (that you can't do, due to the closed source code). 

[DHB]

"..

 All I do is then line up the audio with the video in edit, possibly raise or lower the levels, mute unwanted tracks, and Bob’s your uncle!

"They're not wireless though?? How can you do a live mix of the scene with them??? You can't! 

Using Tentacle Track E bodypack recorders is contradictory to your previous statement of wanting a real time mix." 

 

Exactly: by using Track-Es I don't need  to do a live mix; I don't need to watch levels and keep the sound clean - one step less in the process, as I know that the sound will be OK. The Track-Es wipe out the need to do a live mix.

 

As I said: "..To avoid the live knob-twiddling while capturing audio, I’ve migrated to TRACK-E 32-bit float devices ..so I don’t have to even *think* about possible overload, or too quiet a diminuendo".

 

So I've removed the 'live mix' step, which I previously did, and - knowing that the audio now needs no attention during recording  (because of the huge capture range) - I just slam the several Track-E recordings into the edit by lining them up with the video tracks (..in FCP..), and just raise or lower audio - if required! - while editing.

 

I do not need to monitor or adjust the audio while recording  any more (..as I had been doing with all previous methods..) and I don't need to provide any audio mix to anyone else. It's like I don't have to keep shovelling coal into the boiler, while keeping watch on the temperature and on the steam pressure: I'm now driving an electric locomotive, and I just press Go and Stop.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

If your workflow works for you, and you aren't needing to please anyone else in post, then by all means, switch to track-Es.  I don't care how you get your results.  If you ever have to work with a larger production and you aren't the re-recording mixer, you are going to have to learn the industry standard workflow, or you are going to cause yourself (and your post dept) a massive headache, but as long as you are self-contained, do what works.

Just, now that we've established that the F8 isn't the right tool for your workflow, please stop trashing it for having a workflow that works very well for the majority of its users.  It is very good at doing what it was designed to do.  It just isn't designed to do what *you* want it to do.  So sell it and move on.  That's a far better use of your time and money than trashing the recorder and its control surface here.

[DHB]

".. sell it and move on.  That's a far better use of your time and money than trashing the recorder and its control surface here".

 

Oh I don't think I ever trashed the F8 recorder. I think it's a great device. It's just the FRC-8 'Controller' isn't so great as it first seems: when you swap - by pressing a button - the individual black 'Trim or Pan' knobs from being one or the other, and then swap back; the 'Trim' (audio gain) can jump to an entirely different level that's NOT shown any more by the position of the knob, for example. (The implementation on the F8 box itself is far better, as a different 'virtual' knob (operated by the 'Menu Selector' knob) is used, thus leaving the 'Trim/Gain' knob in its correct, previous position.)

 

The iPad implementation is also better, as there's a constantly visible horizontal 'Pan' position shown for each individual Input - see the pics on the previous page - and you just don't get that on the FRC-8 implementation.

 

The FRC-8 looks more 'meaty', and looks as if you're getting a better, more tactile, implementation ..but in many ways - despite other people's ecstatic reviews when it initially appeared - it has the appearance of being a better 'control surface'. But the actual use, for example, of the same knobs for both 'Pan' and 'Trim' causes real problems, as their orientations do NOT necessarily match the choices you've made. 'Panning' to the right, for example, gives you a knob set way over to the right ..but if you then press the little button to switch it back to its 'Trim' use, then its way-over-right position doesn't match your 'Trim' (or 'Gain') position. So it may look as if it's at Maximum, but its Trim (Gain) output will normally be way off Maximum. Indeed, switching it back from 'Pan' to 'Trim' can often cause a huge drop in gain ..and you wouldn't want that when mixing live!

 

So it's not just that it doesn't work for me - or my non-orthodox way of working - the thing is that it really is flawed in several ways ..try it yourself, and you'll see just what I mean.

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, DHB said:

So I've removed the 'live mix' step, which I previously did, and - knowing that the audio now needs no attention during recording 

Not true. You need to monitor it for many reasons: what if there is rustle? What if a lav comes loose? What if a battery dies? What if a cable gets damaged? What if an action (such as hugging) causes it to be useless? Or any of a zillion other little reasons. 

 

Plus the director, script supervisor, and others need to monitor it for reasons of performances, continuity, cues, and more. 

6 hours ago, DHB said:

".. sell it and move on.  That's a far better use of your time and money than trashing the recorder and its control surface here".

 

Oh I don't think I ever trashed the F8 recorder.

No, but you have been incorrectly very heavily trashing the Zoom F Controller. (and thus indirectly trashing the F8 too, which is part of the same ecosystem. One of the strengths of the F8/F8n when it was released was because it had the F Controller)

6 hours ago, DHB said:

So it's not just that it doesn't work for me - or my non-orthodox way of working - the thing is that it really is flawed in several ways ..try it yourself, and you'll see just what I mean.

I have. The Zoom F Series was my primary recorder I was using every week for a number of years, and I still own them, and use them occasionally. 

 

6 hours ago, DHB said:

It's just the FRC-8 'Controller' isn't so great as it first seems: when you swap - by pressing a button - the individual black 'Trim or Pan' knobs from being one or the other, and then swap back; the 'Trim' (audio gain) can jump to an entirely different level that's NOT shown any more by the position of the knob, for example. (The implementation on the F8 box itself is far better, as a different 'virtual' knob (operated by the 'Menu Selector' knob) is used, thus leaving the 'Trim/Gain' knob in its correct, previous position.)

They're not motorized. 

Of course if you change the values of them by any other method (would also be true if you changed it via the iPad) then the position they're on would no longer be an accurate reflection of what they actually are, until they "catch up" again.