How Important is Live Mixing for Location Sound?

[PMC]

Tourtelot,

I get what you mean, ha, but I meant I post mix in a sterile environment. Not that I try for a sterile mix (where you can hear the gate, attach, brick wall, etc.) and not hear the environment in which the dialog was recorded. Lav only mixes seem so artificial to me. I always ask for a boom or plant track to be active even if the boom isn't close so I can mix in some 'air.' 

[Constantin]

On 10/3/2024 at 10:46 PM, Fred Salles said:

most of the time he delivers his mix and POST fader ISOs.

On scripted fictions obviously.

He has very good valid points about that choice.

ISOs are supposed to be a backup plan in case of unexpected issues. My colleague said when he makes a mistake in his mix he asks for another take (when the focus puller makes a soft shot we do another take right?).

Delivering PRE fade ISOs is actually encouraging post to do their own mix and not use yours. With postfader isos they can correct phase issues and make minor adjustments but they work with what you have chosen to mix.

To be honest, this is a stupid approach.  It’s deliberately crippling post choices and possibilities and forcing your own vision of the scene down their throat. Very often we are not even inna position to properly assess the sound and mix because the condition around us is often terrible.
Sometimes post can make use of the dialog not in the mix, for repairs or whatever.
This type of mixing has nothing to do with experience or being brave or whatever, it’s only about vanity. 

[Patrick Tresch]

Jacques Sax told me that they used Stuart's mix for the final mix...

 

 

One question though. Do you send a mono feed to the director/camera or do you have a stereo output? Wich tool do you use to send the audio?

 

Thanks

 

Patrick Tresch

[Matthias Richter]

what is Stuart doing on the top of the board ALL the time? I‘m curious … 

[ramallo]

On 9/30/2024 at 9:12 AM, Samuel Floyd said:

I'm wondering just how important adjusting the mix is for location sound.

 

Why does it matter if the mix sounds good in a 2 track print that won't be used for a finished product?

 

It seems as though the job is much mores focused on capturing the best sound possible, then letting the post sound department figure out what's best for the mix. 

 

I imagine the dialogue editor would prefer the 2 track mix to be clean but how significant is that?

 

(New to location sound so if the question sounds stupid, my apologies)

Nowadays, IMMO this mix is for quality control on the set, for example for the director (if he/she uses headphones 😈 ), for monitoring (Script, showrunners…) and to record a reference for viewings. And that mix is the guide in post in the image editing, but not as the final mix.

 

I insist to my students that they first check that the ISO tracks are correctly recorded and then they dedicate themselves to the mix.

 

In other era with one or two tracks this mix was final  (But in this era had less microphones on set)

 

But a few months ago a production asked me if I would be willing to mix live for a series, a very low-budget series with many pages of script per day, to have minimal post-production sound. I told them that it was no problem, but that I was no fortune teller, that if there were so many pages of script, it wouldn't all be very rehearsed and that this could give rise to a lot of improvisation and that I could miss things.

[Constantin]

this fits here quite well, I think. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DC8xBioO2c9/?igsh=MWtmZXRvMDYzc2Y2NQ==

[Fred Salles]

On 11/30/2024 at 9:05 AM, Constantin said:

this fits here quite well, I think. 
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DC8xBioO2c9/?igsh=MWtmZXRvMDYzc2Y2NQ==

Yes but he is talking about a live movie musical, so that would be quite extreme to lock mixes!

 

Btw going back to your comment on 26 October, I don't subscribe to your choice of word. It wasn't called a stupid approach when we were mixing mono to a 1 track tape, or even two tracks... In France some of my PSM colleagues have kept the status of what we call today  "sound supervisor" that was the norm back until 20 years ago. We are still the first sound department interlocutor with the director in pre-production on 8 films out of 10, and sometimes the only one before post actually starts. And in many situations the director does not have enough time to share and discuss with the post sound team as much as with us in pre-prod.

In some context, the PSM and the post sound team are regularly working together so they know how they work. In the case of the person I was first mentioning the dialog sound editors actually prefer to receive his ISO post-fader so they have less tedious work to do and can focus on actual creative editing.

We are expected to provide a mix of the dialogs that is not just a basic mix for monitoring but a mix that not only matches the rest of the scene but above all matches the creative vision and desire of the director that we are supposed to have acquired a proper understanding of. Especially for scripted scenes with rehearsals.

Yes there might be some ego involved as most want to hear their dialog mix in the final mix. But I do not think re-re mixers are much less without ego 😁 It is quite rare that the director would actually be present for the whole of post production sound steps, and even more rare that she/he would be able to take decisive choices regarding the dialog mix in the auditorium. So it ends up being the re-recording mixer taking them.

Personally, again, I record my isos pre, but because firstly I work mostly for non-french productions, and secondly most of the films I do have a lot of improvised dialogs or (sometimes and) have foreign languages that I do not know. Also I agree with you that sometimes the choice might be more properly done in a quiet auditorium than on a noisy set with earphones.

I guess if I had another life, staying and working only in France, I might have ended up like my colleagues, recording iso post faders.

 

[Constantin]

10 hours ago, Fred Salles said:

It wasn't called a stupid approach when we were mixing mono to a 1 track tape, or even two tracks

Back then it wasn’t possible any other way. Today it is. Today we have choices. And it‘s a choice to lock in the post team to your mix choices. 
Everything you say above is still true and possible if you record pre-fade isos, except for that one dialog editor. If you want post to know your or the director‘s artistic vision, they have your mix for that. You don’t need to force them to use it. What if you didn’t understand the director‘s vision correctly?

[audiosavant]

It’s a good question, honestly! When I was starting out in location sound, I thought the same thing, that it was mostly about capturing the best raw audio and letting post handle the rest. But I quickly learned that a solid live mix really does make a difference, even for the 2-track print. It helps keep things clean and clear, especially with dialogue. Sure, the post team can fix stuff, but the cleaner you get it on location, the less work they have to do. It’s one of those things where, if you get it right in the field, it makes everyone’s life easier down the line.

 

[Philip Perkins]

3 hours ago, audiosavant said:

It’s a good question, honestly! When I was starting out in location sound, I thought the same thing, that it was mostly about capturing the best raw audio and letting post handle the rest. But I quickly learned that a solid live mix really does make a difference, even for the 2-track print. It helps keep things clean and clear, especially with dialogue. Sure, the post team can fix stuff, but the cleaner you get it on location, the less work they have to do. It’s one of those things where, if you get it right in the field, it makes everyone’s life easier down the line.

 

Easier?  I guess, in terms of having a nice mix for dailies and early editorial.  But USA feature audio post is pretty much entirely based on the isos these days, starting pretty early in the process.  It's not an ego thing, and the post team isn't looking to do unnecessary work, but the system assumes that the location mix will not be everything that the final dubstage dialog mix can be and it is simpler to start with the raw isos and build from there, vs. starting with a location mix and then having to do fixes to it that will match.  We still do that in docs much of the time, but the assumption in drama etc is that the isos will be the basis of the mix.  This is why all the tedious location-sound secretarial work is really important.

[PMC]

4 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

This is why all the tedious location-sound secretarial work is really important.

 

It REALLY is. A pristine 2-track mix is never a top priority for me, other than live sound reinforcement. My focus is on prefader ISOs and detailed notes. 

 

I had the pleasure of mixing with a very experienced and very talanted boom op on an indy feature. The PSM he usually works with was booked. I got the PSM job because I DP'ed a doc for the same company and they knew I had a long history of mixing too. 

 

The boom op encouraged me to attend to the 2-track mix more than I had been. He told me his partner would even ask for additional takes if he didn't ride the mix closely enough. I'm sure I looked at him dumbfounded. I would never ask actors to perform another take just because I failed to nail the 2-track mix and knew I had clean ISOs. 

 

Would any of you? 

[Constantin]

5 hours ago, PMC said:

Would any of you?

No, I would not. I need all the good will for another take for when something really bad happens and I really need another take

[Philip Perkins]

I did, as we all did, a long time ago when we had only 1 or 2 track recorders, scenes were often shot with a single camera and there seemed to be time for rehearsals.  That's not how movie are made any more, and no one of any importance in that process is interested in my opinion about it.  I might ask for another take if I thought I'd messed up the iso tracks beyond usability (or "lost" some of them due to forgetting to record-enable them), but this would not be something one would want to do with any regularity, and there is a very good chance that your request will be refused by production in any case.