Choosing a light stand to support a boom pole for outdoor interviews

[rmac]

I want to film interviews outdoors without a boom op. I need to choose a stand to support my boom pole from the stand to the subject. The ground may not be level, so the stand should have a leveling leg. There may be a breeze, and I want the subject and I to be confident that the stand isn’t going to fall over. Also, I don’t want the stand rattling or swaying during recording. I’m prepared to pay in stand weight, stand footprint on the ground and, as needed, 10lb Manfrotto Counter Balance Weights aka Pumpkins.

 

I plan to mount my boom pole on the stand via a Kupo Microphone Boom Holder (12.6”/32cm long) or Boom Mate 2 (10”/25cm long). These mount on a grip head, which is in turn mounted on the stand’s baby pin.

 

Within the limitations above, I want to keep the stand’s weight and bulk down as much as possible. The interview subject will usually be seated. The height of the average adult male, seated on an average chair, is apparently just over 3’ (91cm). For women, it’s a bit less. Occasionally, the interview subject may be standing. In the U.S., the average adult male is 5’9” (1.8m), and women 5’4” (1.6m). If someone’s too tall for the stand I choose, I’ll ask him or her to sit.

 

I have eliminated a C-stand as an option. I may well use one indoors, but I’m not comfortable with using one outdoors in the conditions I anticipate.

 

I already have a Matthews Slider Stand that should work for seated interviews:

 

Maximum height: 46” (117cm)

Footprint: 37” (94cm)

Weight: 14lb (6.4kg)

 

The maximum height is too low, but I can use a stand extension. For example, a 12” extension would increase the height to 58”. That’s 20” higher than average seated hight. Parenthetically, I’ll add that this stand has a 1 1/8” (28cm) junior receiver, not a 5/8” (16mm) baby receiver. As it happens, Kupo makes Baby Stand Extensions for junior receiver to baby pin.

 

The downside of this stand is its weight of 14lb (6.4kg), but the stowed size of 25” long (64cm) helps make up for that.

 

However, Matthews’s Slider Stand won’t do for stand-up interviews.

 

I’ve come up with a list of additional options. All of the following, except the Avenger Combo, are Baby stands, and all have a leveling leg.

 

 

Avenger Baby Stand 17

Avenger Combo Alu Stand 20

Matthews Preemie Baby Stand

Modern Mini Baby Stand

 

 

American Grip LS02 and LS02S Baby Stands Materials, and therefore weight, is the only difference between these.

Avenger Baby Alu Stand 25

Matthews Hollywood Beefy Baby Stand

Modern Baby Stand The weight is 10lbs/4.5kg.

 

I imagine that some people here have a lot of experience with interviews. I’m keen to get comments and suggestions!

[Aprikot]

What are the conditions that make you discount a c-stand? In my experience a c-stand with a sliding leg for uneven ground should have you covered. Throw a 15-20lb sandbag on it and you're golden. Throw two sandbags on it if you're worried.

 

Of course if you want the stand to pull double duty for other types of lights or setups, then maybe one of the other options suits you better.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

I agree, I want to know more about why you are discounting a C-Stand and what problem you are trying to solve by using a lighting stand.

To get a significantly better weight-to-stability ratio than a C-Stand in a lighting stand, you are probably going to end up with a much heavier, larger stand.  Think combo-stands or larger.  I doubt any of the options you've listed will be different enough to be worth it.  Weight-for-weight, I would consider a C-Stand more stable and reliable.  Load up the base with sandbags, use a counter-weight and make sure the boom is aligned over the large leg if you are at worried about collapse.  If that isn't enough, maybe reconsider the whole setup, or consult a professional grip.

 

You mention wind as a worry ... one thing you need to consider (light-stand or C-Stand) is the risk that flying a boom in wind can create a lot of torque that will rotate the boom in the stand.  This can destabilize the setup if it moves the weight of the boom between the legs (i.e. not over the large leg).  This will be a risk no matter how big the stand it; the solution is probably to anchor the boom with multiple stands (and maybe even guy wires) so there isn't a single rotation point.  Keeping this safe and out of shot is a significant job, and probably one best left to a grip department.  Also bear in mind that the longer the boom extension, the more torque it generates when the wind picks up.  Even if you find a stand that simply will not rotate, the amount of force is pretty significant, and you are at risk of the boom itself breaking if you try hold it too rigidly.  The hardware on the boom itself are also potential failure points:  The knuckles and the joints on the zeppelin are both possible points of failure.

In a heavy windstorm, I'd probably do away with stand entirely and boom it by hand, keeping the boom as short as possible.  You may be blown off-axis momentarily if the wind really picks up, but losing perfect mic position for a second or two is much safer than trying to resist the elements.  Allowing the mic position to flex under pressure (by using your arms to support it) will prevent the amount of force from getting to the point of breakage.

The circumstances I just described are extreme, and if those are the circumstances you are trying to mitigate, you might be at a point where you need to be asking the director to modify the shot for the sake of safety (or convenience & time, considering what it could take in terms of equipment and manpower to make it safe).

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

Thinking about this more with my grip hat on, the safest way I can think of to locate a mic above a subject in heavy wind is probably to dispense with the boom pole entirely.  Suspend the mic from the centre of a polecat rigged over the subject, with the polecat secured by a stand at each end.  Basically, you are building a lighting grid over your subject and rigging the mic from that.  This completely removes the one-ended, cantilevered nature of a boom that causes so many of the safety issues I brought up in the post above.

"Polecat" may be the wrong grip terminology here ... I'm not a grip myself.  But what you want is a pole mounted horizontally over the frame instead of a boom pole that extends out from the camera.

[rmac]

4 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

I agree, I want to know more about why you are discounting a C-Stand and what problem you are trying to solve by using a lighting stand.
 

 

We won’t be interviewing anybody in high wind. I do expect there to be a breeze on occasion, and to be on rough ground, wet ground, rock, gravel, grass, etc. I am not comfortable using a C-stand on those kinds of surfaces, especially around people who aren’t familiar with how C-stands behave. My own experience tells me that tripods, which is what light stands are, are inherently more stable. I realize that your experience tells you otherwise. I appreciate that, but I intend to use a tripod, in this case a light stand, and boom my pole from it. I hope to have the interview subject no more than about 10’ away, preferably less, but I’ll need to experiment with that. I realize that the stand’s footprint has to clear the camera’s frame.

 

In my post, fifth paragraph, I talked about my Matthews dolly/slider stand. If you click on the link, you’ll see pictures of it and full specs. That stand is rock solid, and it’s what I want to see in an interview stand. As explained, I think that it will work for seated interviews, but it’s too short for standing interviews. I made a list of options because I’d appreciate comments on them.

 

Also, I have grip gear made by all of the manufacturers on the list. However, I’ve never used a Modern Studio stand, and I’ve found almost no discussion about their stands on the internet. If any users of their stands can comment on quality, that would be great.

[Tim Norris]

Huh... the C-Stand is a modified tripod and is what I use. I carry four detachable base stands with standard risers and three with 20" risers, all in black, as well as four 15# and six 25# shot bags, arms, short arms and gobo heads. Super easy to pack and set up. They are more stable than even a large heavy duty light stand because they are easier to stabilize with shot bags. I can't imagine using anything else.

 

Let us know what you settle on!

 

Cheers,

Tim

[rmac]

58 minutes ago, Tim Norris said:

 

 

Let us know what you settle on!

 

I’ve done that twice 😀 I’ve arranged for the input I’m looking for, so there’s no need to take up time here on the subject.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

Thanks for clarifying.  It helps knowing what you are after.  I think this is probably a different strokes for different folks situation.  In the grand scheme of things, I doubt it makes much difference in most circumstances.  Both will work, and you clearly have your preference, as I have mine.  I've used a C-Stand to great effect in many outdoor interview situations, so I can tell you it works, but I've never used light stands for anything except lighting.  Since you have clearly done a lot of research already and you know what you want, you probably already know more than most of us here, and I don't have much to add.  When you settle on a choice, please report back!

[Movies by Matt]

It would seem you want the Matthews Monitor Stand II. It’s the slider stand but taller and has the rocky mountain leg. You can buy it with or without casters. 
 

https://www.msegrip.com/products/the-monitor-stand-ii?srsltid=AfmBOoq_UHFQElomRvaZwX2Cv70ANrIw17TNE2P7Lq5roJh_Y6KO-YMb

[rmac]

5 hours ago, Movies by Matt said:

It would seem you want the Matthews Monitor Stand II. It’s the slider stand but taller and has the rocky mountain leg. You can buy it with or without casters. 
 

https://www.msegrip.com/products/the-monitor-stand-ii?srsltid=AfmBOoq_UHFQElomRvaZwX2Cv70ANrIw17TNE2P7Lq5roJh_Y6KO-YMb

 

Thanks for prompting me to take another look at Matthews’s monitor stand. I was put off by the weight (17lbs/7.7kg) and the rolling stand design. In customer Q&As, a B&H employee says that this stand is less stable than the slider stand, but not by much. I’m going to drop by B&H, which is local to me, and have a look at what happens to the stability and footprint as the angle of the legs is made steeper. B&H is closed until Sunday, so this won’t happen until next week.

 

Without casters, the price is much easier to swallow.

 

In any event, I have a set of Matthews’s Big F’ing Wheels, which work with both stands and are all-terrain. These would go a long way to addressing my height problem, but as the photos in the link show they are big 8” wheels. Also, Matthews’s claim that they’re “semipneumatic" is wishful thinking 😀 So far, I'm trying to keep them out of the equation.

[rmac]

Shortlist of five, listed in order of maximum height.

 

 

The average seated hight for an adult male is 37”/94cm. The average standing height is 5’9”/175cm. Averages for women are a bit less. I’m content to add a baby pin height extension when needed.

 

Modern Studio Mini Baby Stand

Matthews Preemie Baby Stand

Matthews Monitor Stand II

Matthews Hollywood Beefy Baby Stand

American Grip Baby Stand American offers a 10.75lb/4.9kg version of this stand for somewhat more money.

 

B&H, which is local, sells Matthews. I can see the Beefy Baby Stand when it re-opens on Sunday. Looks like the other two Matthews stands are at the warehouse in New Jersey. B&H staff might agree to bring them to the store so I can look at them.

[Movies by Matt]

If you don’t want to wait. Go to AbelCineTech in Brooklyn. I’d call ahead to ensure they have those products available. BH is, of course, a phenomenal operation but when possible I try and support Gotham Sound and AbelCine. Since they’re more specialized I find the general knowledge of the staff at each store to be superior to BH. But it’s hard to beat BH for an in store experience where you can touch many of the items you’re interested in or for how efficient the online ordering and shipping is. Keep us posted on what you choose and why. 

[rmac]

Thanks,

 

AbelCiné, like B&H, carries Matthews. Adorama will order American grip at full list. Its website doesn’t even show American’s Baby Stand as a product. As far as I know, nobody in New York sells Modern Studio.

 

I’ll call Abel and see if they have all three stands in stock. If not, B&H’s Lighting/Grip Department is good to deal with and more convenient for me.

 

Gotham is supplying the Boom Mate 2 or Kupo Boom Holder, which is a Boom Mate knock-off. Gotham doesn’t stock the Kupo, but they can get it in 2-3 days, and the Kupo may be less susceptible to displaying cosmetic damage from grip heads. 

 

 

[Barry M]

The Ursa kit interview with Chris Howland shows him using an Avenger roller stand (like a C-stand on wheels).  Less stable, but sandbagged it looks up to the lighter loads used here, and pretty convenient.  Think it's the 8 footer, but it might be the 10?

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/611435-REG/Avenger_A5017_A5017_Roller_Stand_17.html

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/104601-REG/Avenger_A5033_A5033_Folding_Base_Wheeled.html

 

Also, enjoy the Gene Martin Audio Dept. Ikea cart retrofit.

 

 

[rmac]

1 hour ago, Barry M said:

The Ursa kit interview with Chris Howland shows him using an Avenger roller stand (like a C-stand on wheels).  Less stable, but sandbagged it looks up to the lighter loads used here, and pretty convenient.  Think it's the 8 footer, but it might be the 10?

 Interesting interview. The section of the video that Barry is talking about is at 7:45.

[rmac]

I’ve explained in this thread that my objective outdoors is to mount my boom pole on a stand that approximates a tripod. Six posts up, I said that my initial concern about the Matthews Monitor Stand was the roller stand design. That’s why I go on to say that I want to look at the stand in person, and find out what happens to the shape and the footprint when I make the leg angle steeper. I’ve been told that my problem with C-stands and relatively flat roller stands is simply wrong. I should use a C-Stand and, if needed, a healthy amount of weight. One person above suggested as much as 30-40lbs.

 

Earlier this evening, I happened to come across a video by an Australian named Andrew Lock. He has a YouTube channel called Gaffer & Gear. Despite his channel being pretty niche, he has 55,000 subscribers. The reason is that a lot of people think that Lock knows what he’s talking about. This is his business website: https://www.andrewlocklighting.com.au

 

I’m hoping that Lock’s video might satisfy people that there are defensible reasons for my decision, even if people think that I’m wrong. If someone wants to believe that C-Stands are more stable than baby and combo stands, I’m not here to disagree. I just want to buy a stand that meets my specs rather than spend my time defending my specs.

 

Lock uses a heavy light to illustrate the basic principles that he’s talking about, but what he says is not just about heavy lights.

 

 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

1 hour ago, rmac said:

I’ve been told that my problem with C-stands and relatively flat roller stands is simply wrong.

 

To be clear, I didn't say you were wrong.  I asked what your rationale was, and you gave it.  As a response to the video you posted, I'll quote what I actually wrote:
 

On 10/20/2024 at 2:48 PM, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

To get a significantly better weight-to-stability ratio than a C-Stand in a lighting stand, you are probably going to end up with a much heavier, larger stand.  Think combo-stands or larger.  I doubt any of the options you've listed will be different enough to be worth it.  Weight-for-weight, I would consider a C-Stand more stable and reliable.

 

My opinion stands.  That video is comparing a Combo stand to a C-Stand, which is significantly larger and heavier than a C-Stand.  Since you want something more stable than a C-Stand, by all means, invest in a Combo stand.  But, I don't think any of the Baby stands you are considering offer the same kind of stability.  They are all going to be more or less equal to the C-Stand if you ask me.  Maybe you find one that is slightly better, in which case, go for it.  But it won't be night and day.

 

The sway test isn't particularly relevant for a one-pound load (boom) flying at 7 feet.  How heavy the load is absolutely matters here; a boom isn't going to create that kind of inertia if it starts moving (and it will flex and move a bit).  And you will never fly the boom at 12-16 feet the way you would a light.  So, yes, that part of the test kind of does only apply to heavy lights.  Beyond that rigidity is mostly a function of the diameter of the central pole; the Combo stand is wider, therefore much stiffer.  The Baby stands you are looking at will flex just as much as the C-Stand.

 

The fundamental stability of any stand, C-Stand, Baby, or Combo, is a function of how wide the legs are spread, the centre of gravity, including the load, and how much the load is cantilevered / imbalanced.  A baby stand might have a slight advantage in leg spread (depending on the stand and how it is set up; if you snug in the legs, you eliminate that advantage), but it has a significantly higher centre of gravity than a C-Stand.  That low centre of gravity is why, even though he can push the light with his pinky, it doesn't immediately overbalance, and falls back to centre once he lets it go (even considering the fact that he's pushing the light at the stand's weakest point, in the gap between the two smallest legs).  A light stand with a similar leg spread to the C-Stand would take more force to move, but would reach its tipping point sooner because it has a higher centre of gravity.  And it's easier to keep the centre of gravity low when putting sandbags on a C-Stand because of how it's designed.

 

Cantilevering is by far the biggest concern for a boom pole, because a boom is fundamentally imbalanced.  C-Stand or Baby, it's absolutely essential to mount the boom outwards over one of the legs of the stand (the big leg in the case of the C-Stand).  You can counteract the cantilevering by adding a counterweight, but that raises the overall centre of gravity, so you trade load balance for centre of gravity.  In the circumstances you are planning for (7' height, 10' boom extension), I don't tend to think that trade-off is worth it, so I usually run without a counterweight, and keep a sandbag on the base.  I generally find one sandbag sufficient, two if I'm outdoors in wind or if I'm running an unusually long boom.  I've done a LOT of interviews this way.

 

The one clear advantage I can think of that a baby stand has over a C-Stand is that the legs are equal length, which means it is more flexible when the rocky-mountain leg is in use.  A rocky-mountain leg has to be oriented uphill, and this is rarely the direction you want the boom to be.  Since the rocky-mountain leg on a C-Stand is also the big leg, that limits its use on rough terrain.  That said, I don't think I've ever shot an interview on terrain that rough; generally I can just dig the legs into the ground a bit to correct for any lean.  But, even with a Baby stand, you still need to have the boom over one of the legs, so you are still quite limited in how you can place the stand.  It's just not quite as bad as the C-Stand.

One other thing you should consider is material.  A steel C-Stand will be much more stable than an aluminum baby stand because of its weight ... until you add sandbags.  A steel baby stand is probably much closer to a steel C-Stand, though I'd bet the average C-Stand still weighs more than the average baby stand.  I strongly suggest not using either without a sandbag.  If you intend to run without sandbags, I'd say a Combo stand or heavier is an absolute must.  You need that weight to be somewhere.  Whether it's in a stand or a sandbag is up to you.

Long story short, you've already said you are willing to pay in size and weight to get more stability than a C-Stand, so if that's the trade-off you want to make, you should make it.  To do that, you need a combo-stand; none of the baby stands on your list are going to be better than a C-Stand to the degree that you want.  Not coincidentally, that's also the stand that is being compared in the video that you posted.  The only combo-stand on your list is this one:  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600615-REG/Avenger_A1035B_A1035B_Combo_Alu_Stand.html  Buy the 11.5' version; it's legs are much longer, so it's base will be wider and more stable than the 6.5' version.  It's aluminum, so I doubt it's quite heavy enough to truly trust without a sandbag, but at 15 lbs, it should be much more stable than the rest of the stands on your list.

[rmac]

Hi Documentary Sound Guy,

 

I’ve made a decision and I’ll be checking out a number of stands in person in the coming days. I’m enjoying my morning coffee, and as Matt suggested above I’m about to speak with AbelCine about what they have in stock. I haven’t responded to the views that you hold, or to your characterization of mine, and I’m not going to start now. Might be an interesting discussion, but I just want to address a need.

 

Cheers

[Izen Ears]

I've never had a C stand fail in wind or otherwise in 21+ years, but the next step is a baby digital.  Which is bigger and heavier, but more stable and it has a rocky mountain leg.

[rmac]

6 hours ago, Izen Ears said:

I've never had a C stand fail in wind or otherwise in 21+ years, but the next step is a baby digital.  Which is bigger and heavier, but more stable and it has a rocky mountain leg.

 

Thanks very much. Matthews makes two Baby Digitals. The lighter of the two is Matthews Aluminum Lightweight Digital Baby Stand (Black, 12.9’). It sounds like you may be talking about this one:

 

Matthews Digital Triple Riser Sky-Hi Baby Stand - 13.5' (4 m)

 

Minimum Height: 4’2” (127cm)

Maximum Height: 13.6’ (414cm)

Footprint: 50” (127cm)

Weight: 20lbs (9kg)

 

I’m curious about these stands and hope to have a look at them at B&H or Adorama. That said, the minimum and maximum heights are quite a bit taller than I need. Matthews’s Monitor Stand weighs 17lbs, but at 6’ has less than half the maximum height. American Grip’s 2-rise Baby Stand, at 14.25lbs, has a maximum height that’s 4’2" shorter, and a 45” footprint. On paper, I’m more inclined toward those, but I haven’t ruled out alternatives. Next step is to check out some of these stands in person 😀

 

 

I do think that it’s helpful to keep in mind that we’re talking about booming a carbon fibre pole that’s maybe 10’ long with a 6” pencil mike at the end.

 

 

 

[rmac]

Between B&H and Adorama, it looks like I may be able to see the Matthews stands on my list, as well as others, in store. The two stores aren’t far apart, and they reopen on Sunday. Unfortunately AbelCine orders, but doesn’t stock, Matthews stands.

[Erob]

Just my 2 cents here, I’m with everyone else that a C-stand is perfectly usable outside and with the weight of the boom sway shouldn’t be a problem. 
 

Clearly you disagree with this, so I’ll suggest a beefy baby stand, you mentioned it at one point, checks all the boxes. Little larger than a C-stand, stable, has a Rocky Mountain leg, has a baby pin.
 

The digital combo is still more stable but they are large at the end of the day. Seems like overkill to me but it is a solution for sure. 

 

https://www.msegrip.com/products/hollywood-beefy-baby-triple-riser-br-with-rocky-mountain-leg?srsltid=AfmBOoqqvxDn77gpujQfjA7lfIX0DsGsvJ1TGsrzMoISfE0IQHopRUc9

[rmac]

47 minutes ago, Erob said:

... I’ll suggest a beefy baby stand, you mentioned it at one point, checks all the boxes. Little larger than a C-stand, stable, has a Rocky Mountain leg, has a baby pin.
 

The digital combo is still more stable but they are large at the end of the day. Seems like overkill to me but it is a solution for sure. 

 

https://www.msegrip.com/products/hollywood-beefy-baby-triple-riser-br-with-rocky-mountain-leg?srsltid=AfmBOoqqvxDn77gpujQfjA7lfIX0DsGsvJ1TGsrzMoISfE0IQHopRUc9

 

Thanks, very helpful. Matthews makes two versions of the Beefy Baby Stand. Your link is to the 12.3', 13.5lb version. The 8.5’, 12.5lb version (Matthews Beefy Baby Stand) is on my short list and B&H has it on display in the store.

[rmac]

5 hours ago, Erob said:

Just my 2 cents here, I’m with everyone else that a C-stand is perfectly usable outside and with the weight of the boom sway shouldn’t be a problem. 

Clearly you disagree with this...

 

so I’ll suggest a beefy baby stand, you mentioned it at one point, checks all the boxes. Little larger than a C-stand, stable, has a Rocky Mountain leg, has a baby pin.

 

Just want to clarify that I haven’t said that C-stands are unusable outdoors. In fact, I’ve used them outdoors myself, on hard surfaces, such as concrete or a wooden deck, in calm air. What I said is this: "I do expect there to be a breeze on occasion, and to be on rough ground, wet ground, rock, gravel, grass, etc. I am not comfortable using a C-stand on those kinds of surfaces, especially around people who aren’t familiar with how C-stands behave."

 

In the 2023 Adorama video below, NY photographer and MAC Group Creative Director Ab Sesay provides an overview of stands. At 8:50, right after discussing C-Stands, he discusses Beefy Baby Stands. Looks like he agrees with you that they “check all the boxes”. Among other things, he says:

 

"These are great when you’re going to be working outdoors because they are more stable than a C-Stand..."

 

 

[rmac]

San Francisco gaffer Luke Seerveld’s latest video, with fellow gaffers Alan Steinheim and Shane Louis:

 

Basic Concepts of Lighting Exterior Interviews

 

They’re on grass. Not a C-Stand in sight.