John Blankenship Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Eric, Did you lose an exceptionally large Superbowl bet or has the Florida heat gotten to you? You seem even more the curmudgeon than usual. I agree with the others -- this IS exactly the proper place to discuss sound issues -- including after the fact. John B., CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfisk Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I still think Paul McCartney's recent super bowl halftime show was awesome, and the best I've seen. I missed this year's. I had other, more important "things" to attend to. I will add...having done sound for live music, just the logistics of getting the stage and equipment set up, the "performance" done, and then getting off the field in the amount of time they did was impressive. I just hope none of the crew slipped and fell on the turf like so many of the players were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Eric, Did you lose an exceptionally large Superbowl bet or has the Florida heat gotten to you? You seem even more the curmudgeon than usual. I agree with the others -- this IS exactly the proper place to discuss sound issues -- including after the fact. John B., CAS Neither John. I watched the game and didn't care who won. Perhaps I'm too blase about this tempest in a teapot. I've never found any value or interest in rehashing something that happened that you weren't a part of, couldn't have done anything to fix it and it didn't affect you in any way. It's like rubbernecking at an accident on the highway, you see it, say too bad and drive on. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacefivesound Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Could someone explain how the encode and downmix is handled for live broadcast like this? The broadcast mixer for the halftime show would mix for 5.1 and it would be downmixed into stereo and mono automatically, correct? Possibly in their 5.1 encoders? It appears this is likely where the issue is, and I'm not surprised. I worked on a live show where music/dialog was being mixed into 5.1 and the stereo downmix on tv (ABC) never sounded good, but the surround sounded worlds better. In the truck sounded much, much different than on TV, worlds better. The truck engineers were trying to fix the way the truck mixer listened in the encode/decode lineup (I think it was pre encode and they were talking about changing it to after decode). Also, they were trying to figure out how hot they should hit their encoders. Then the show got canceled, so I never got to find out the answer they would come up with... This was back in 2006. Bonus points if you can name the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Mallery Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I agree the mix could have been better, but I think the bigger problem was the lack of musicianship. I think the Black Eyed Peas are good at what they do - writing catchy songs that the kids want to hear. But it's music that's crafted in the studio, and bringing it to the stage with live vocals and backing tracks will always lack something. Putting it on the biggest stage there is won't make the problem go away, it just magnifies it. Fergie sounded like she was screaming because she was screaming. Sure, it could have sat in the mix a little better, but it still wouldn't have sounded nice. In recent years I enjoyed the Super Bowl set by Tom Petty, and a few years back Prince completely blew me away. I'm sure those sound crews faced their own set of challenges and had a few things happen that they wish could have happened differently. What the crew last night was really missing were live musicians that could tear it up on stage. You need more than just Slash playing along with recorded tracks to get that magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 I respectfully disagree with my Florida friend, I don't think sound guys discussing what might have gone wrong with sound is at all like rubber-necking at an accident. And, being from Indy (next year's Superbowl host) anything we can learn that will help us put on the best party ever, is worthwhile. How bad it was became even more obvious when friends of mine -- who have no connections to film, entertainment, or audio, and without any prompting or comments from me -- turned to each other several times during the performance and made comments about how bad the sound mix was. How often do we hear lay people discussing a sound mix? We could look at this from the positive point of view: For those who hate lip-synced performances, there was no doubt that the BEP were singing live. A question for anyone who has recently done the research, and quite appropriate to the discussion and what we can learn from it: What total percentage of viewers had 5.1 sound, what percentage were listening to stereo, and what percentage heard everything crammed through a tiny single speaker? I'm of the mind that the industry sometimes is so focused on the latest technology that they can forget what affects the largest majority of people. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Aquliera is simply the latest in a long line of Anthem singers who think it is all about them and not the meaning of the anthem itself. She was so concerned with performing her vocal gymnastics to impress that she lost focus on the words. Note to Diva's: It's not about you. Simple and heartfelt is better! I think you pretty much nailed it. She tried to milk every note. If a singer really wants to impress, they should try singing the Star Spangled Banner exactly the way it's written -- hit every note right on the money and keep the meter perfect. THAT would be impressive because it's an extremely difficult song to sing well if you sing it straight -- there's nowhere to hide (musically). John B., CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Here's what I don't understand... why do they typically shoot and mix to the lowest common denominator (analog TV and TV speakers) for just about every show on television, but for the show that is watched the most by consumers, they try some fancy mix. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bondelev Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Here's what I don't understand... why do they typically shoot and mix to the lowest common denominator (analog TV and TV speakers) for just about every show on television, but for the show that is watched the most by consumers, they try some fancy mix. Robert This has never been my experience. Even 15 years ago, we mixed television on theatrical systems, then did playback on TV speakers to make sure it translated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 This has never been my experience. Even 15 years ago, we mixed television on theatrical systems, then did playback on TV speakers to make sure it translated. That's been my experience in the past (mix on good monitors but verify for the real world) but I've done more post work than live TV. And, of course, having Auratones (or other small, awful speakers) to audition the mix through only helps if you actually use them. <g> John B., CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I think that's what I meant. You guys may have mentioned it some time ago in threads about "checking" the mix for the "average" consumer. I believe, among other things, that the person responsible for that for the half-time show failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniebeaudry Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Tip number one: Never agreee to sing the National Anthem at the Superbowl without a Teleprompter. They should put the correct lyrics on the huge scoreboard then everyone in the stadium will get them right as they mumble along. ---Courtney They usually do put them up on the scoreboard for everyone to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniebeaudry Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Aquliera is simply the latest in a long line of Anthem singers who think it is all about them and not the meaning of the anthem itself. She was so concerned with performing her vocal gymnastics to impress that she lost focus on the words. Note to Diva's: It's not about you. Simple and heartfelt is better! You're absolutely right Steve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniebeaudry Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I still think Paul McCartney's recent super bowl halftime show was awesome, and the best I've seen. I missed this year's. I had other, more important "things" to attend to. I will add...having done sound for live music, just the logistics of getting the stage and equipment set up, the "performance" done, and then getting off the field in the amount of time they did was impressive. I just hope none of the crew slipped and fell on the turf like so many of the players were. That was Super Bowl thirty nine and I got to work on that one. I had my wife tape it for me so I could see the whole game and half time when I got back. From where I was on the sidelines I couldn't hear the PA mix well. I was right next to the sub woofers. I heard them rehearse a few days before the game in the stadium and even without people (except the three or four of us setting up) it still sounded great. The mix sounded great on the tape when I watched it at home too. Ironically the Black Eyed Peas played on the field for the pre game show paired up with Earh Wind and Fire. They were doing a "then and now" type of presentation. This was before Fergie and they were playing instruments. They sounded fine. I also think that the down mix from 5.1 was part of the issue, but didn't have anything to do with the mixing mistakes. There is lots of low end in that type of "music" and on a small speaker it mostly went away. I mixed two different bands live for a television show a long time ago and it was interesting that one band practically mixed itself. I would have had to try really hard to screw up the mix. The other group was all over the place. They sounded good but it took much more tweaking and constant moves to get a good mix. Wonderful musicians but they weren't "playing together". Each of them were in their own little world. I think that's part of why the actual performance was so bad. Possible too that their monitor mix was screwed up and they couldn't hear themselves well. I heard from a friend who was in the stadium that it sounded fine in there. The A1 for the game mix is a friend of mine. I'm going to email him and see if he has any details about the half time show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minister Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I know the guy who mixed the studio track for the backing track. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it. The problem came with the interface of the FOH and SB broadcast crew. Where exactly the problem was, I don't know. The artists were unable to hear very well. Now, whether or not BEP or Fergie have any basic musical talent -- like Paul McCartney or Springsteen or Prince -- well..... Not to my ear. But that's another matter, yet it was revealed how reliant upon the studio for live production some artists have become. Friends of mine played me a recording of Jeff Buckley calling into their radio show (WFMU) and he did a sing along and completely NAILED it over-the-phone. There's one guy who could phone it in and get away with it. Remarkable talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm back, and found this thread after reading the one about the teams, where I commented briefly; glasd to see more folks took notice of the Anthem and half time shows performances and sound... " Probably the bands mixer insisting he had to mix his artist " actually it would be the artists insisting their mixer(s) must mix their performances... at the Pro Bowl, the Goo Goo Dolls had two mixers, house and monitors, and both mixes were on one Yamaha PM5D console!! Oh, and they brought some of their stuff to patch in. Yes this resulted in issues!! The TV game mixer does not mix the shows, but gets a feed from the show mixer(s)... The NFL pays a lot of attention to the house mix, and for these big games they usually supplement the stadium house systems; at the Aloha Stadium, there are 8 sizable stacks of JBL Vertec's rolled out along the sidelines, and we spend a lot of time and effort tuning the stadium and supplemental systems to get the best possible sound for the most possible part of the stadium.. Then there are the stage sections, and the connections for them. typically we use wireless IEM's fed using helical antenna on the sidelines...Yes, all this this involves lots of coordination amongst producers and multiple contractors... You may remember I posted 2 years ago (the Previous Pro Bowl in Hawai'i) of some issues we encountered with Enrique Ingressias and his singing partner for that halftime show Sierra... for the stadium, a lot of the rehearsals are 100% to tracks (the actual artists aren't there), and for the limited rehearsals with the artists both the TV (images) and sound work to optimize all the facets of the show; sometimes much of the performance music will be trax, depending on the artists involved... (The Goo Goo Dolls sang live to 24 track pre-records)... Just the physical logistics of these shows can boggle the mind... add to that all the technology, and productions desire to push the envelope, sometimes it is amazing that the show actually flowed smoothly, even with all the glaring weaknesses in the sound, and frankly performances! and sometimes, it is just less than the best choices of the entertainers involved, as they may not be the best fit for the shows expected... and BTW, Ms. Agulara looked terrible, too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 " Probably the bands mixer insisting he had to mix his artist " actually it would be the artists insisting their mixer(s) must mix their performances... Point being, someone not necessarily familiar with mixing for tv at the helm. at the Pro Bowl, the Goo Goo Dolls had two mixers, house and monitors, and both mixes were on one Yamaha PM5D console!! Oh, and they brought some of their stuff to patch in. Done all the time every day with no issues. Just the physical logistics of these shows can boggle the mind... Not really, it's all signal flow. Some good points in there, but the bottom line is the guy with hands on the on-air faders fumbled the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 " the guy with hands on the on-air faders fumbled the mix. " of course! but which guy?? I'd say the show mixer and not so much the TV mixer, other than his putting his faith in the show mixer(s). S/he probably had limited contact, interaction and rehearsal with the show folks... There are a lot of folks with hands on faders for these events. actually all your points are relevent. And probably from several causes, and the synergy of them all, plus a little help from Murphy, stuff fell apart... I was not trying to defend anyone, but was responding to some of the points made, adding some detail to the possibilitys for the FU. The Pro Bowls I referenced had these issues, but went well, and turned out very nicely... The Big Game had more issues to deal with, and more chances for gotcha's... Murphy won! --As for my reference to logistics, I was refering to the overall production of these spectacles: designing, planning,,getting it all built, wired, tested, delivered, stored, rehearsed, tweaked, rehearsed some more on then off the field (staging and performers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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