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Comtek as wireless hop


Harris K

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I am concerned that in broaching this topic, I may be raising an unliked topic. I don't wish to get into the area of ethics and financial matters of charging production for convenience, I just want to explore a hypothetical. Though perhaps I'm doing a general disservice by making this topic google searchable. If so, flame away. That said:

Has anyone tried this? Is there some pitfall to the idea I'm failing to see? I can't see a problem with this set up in a situation where camera audio is non-critical, like a feature with time and budget for proper syncing. The Comtek audio will definitely be inferior to a higher quality system, but a non-critical application, such as a Pluraleyes workflow or just plain dailies, wouldn't seem to need more. And besides, most of the time we'd have to stick the sound through camera, our audio is getting 30% worse before the D/A.

Is there a crucial issue I've overlooked? Has anyone had any successes or failures with this set up?

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I have seen and used every flavor of Comtek receiver on cameras. Nowadays, yeah, the PR-216's. I also use, and so did the mixers I've worked with, the BST, and not the lower output M-216 bag transmitters. Depending on where the mixer is set up, that could be an issue with reception. For the cable, I use a six inch to foot long 1/8 to XLR, camera input cable. Sure it's going to sound like a comtek and receive RF hits from now and then, but I have never heard of any issues from post, probably since it's just a reference track.

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Having good luck generally with G2 hop to RED for guidetrack. I've used Comtek also, but always a bit concerned with fact RX output cable on Comtek doubles as antenna. Never had a complaint though. Too bad G2 and Comtek need internal battery power in these uses. Changing batteries sometimes an issue when the RED is all McGyvered up with a ton-o'-shit,  like monitors, Barteks and the like.

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For years I have had great success using Lectro Battery eliminators in my comtecs.  Just drill a pass through hole in the right place, but it in your transmitter and power it from any DC source around 12 volts. Have never done it with receiver but it would work fine to allow camera power instead of internal batt power.

Used this system on the cart so never needed to worry or change comtec batts on audio and time code transmitters.  Works in bag jobs too.

Jim Mansen

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JimMansen: I like that idea! Are the Lectro Battery Eliminators universal to anything that feeds on 9v normally?

Second Q: For camera receiver locations, where are you normally tapping power from? I'll admit, I'm not up on every design of camera, but do they have some form of standardized power tap?

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The lectro eliminator is exactly the same size as a regular 9v batt.  You can put in anywhere a 9v fits.

few consumer cameras have power outs.  The last few times I have worked with small cameras they have had a Batt Sled for Anton Bauer vblock batts with D-tapp power connectors for lights, monitors, or anything else cam dept may want to use.  Managed to steal one of the dc outs for audio.

Jim Mansen CAS

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Where? Link?

Eric

Eric,

This might work for you:

http://www.qcavionix.com/be-2aa.php?cat=20502

I haven't used their AA adapters, but have several of their 9v. ones on my cart.  NOTE:  I added ferrite beads to the power leads to reduce interaction with the numerous other devices on the same power buss.

I hope this helps.

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I've also used a Comtek as a scratch audio track. No worries there. I *usually* use a G2 (because I own them anyway), but I have used Comteks. If anything, they appreciate having something better than the camera's on-board mic (if there is one) for syncing/dailies/playback/etc.

I throw high capacity NiMH rechargeables in my G2s and they usually last all day. Comteks can go forever with an iPower (or even run well with a cheaper 9volt rechargeable). I would rather do that than tap camera power if possible.

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  • 2 weeks later...

When using Comteks for a camera feed, I have been using the Camera Receiver version, which has a separate antenna connector. This usually results in better RF performance, but audio-wise, it is still a Comtek ;)

For a few shows, I had to provide high-quality audio, which has forced me to use the Lectro D4 system. This has worked quite well, with, um, the exception of the antennas.

Unfortunately, every camera seems to have a different arrangement for both powering and audio interface. Some camera houses also have their own power distribution systems, which may or may not use standard connectors. And then there is the Anton-Baurer distro system as well...

After having invested a significant sum of money in cable interfaces (which would have been better spent at the bar) for the RED, Panavision SSR, Sony/Panavision F900 and F35, as well as half-a-dozen other cameras I don't remember, I thought I had covered all the bases. But then last weekend I did a shoot with the Panasonic AJ-HPX3000. Back to the soldering iron again. At least they use a standard Hirose 4 pin male connector (which quite nicely mimics the pinout used by Ron Meyer at PSC for on a few of  their mixers. Hey, who says, there are no standards!)

--Scott

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Fora scratch track, it's no problem, but beware that your tracks may carry farther down the chain than you will expect...

I was doing a series a couple of years ago shooting  on varicam, post and I agreed that we would not sent audio to the steadycam, and they would sync audio for that camera from my files.

I get a call a few days into the show from the director, telling me that there is no audio on any of the steadcam footage for dailies.  Apparently, the work flow changed a few times since we had our production meetings, and no one told me that they were now doing dailies right off the HD masters.  I called post and told them that I would put a comtek on the steadycam, but it was only for dailies reference and would need to be replaced by my sound files. They said "no problem," and off we went with the rest of the series.

They never locked picture until after production wrapped, so I wasn't able to sit in on a mix until about the third or forth episode.  At one point, the re-recording mixer turned to me and asked if I ever got the audio problem on the "C" camera fixed.  "Huh?"...  It turned out that regardless of what post, and specifically the assistant editors told me, they never replaced the tracks.  they cut tracks with limited bandwidth comteks, complete with cell phone noise, dropouts, etc., then sent it to the dubbing stage without even a note.

They spent hours on it, and finally called the post super, and told them that they couldn't make the audio broadcast quality.  The post sup said well we have these DEVA discs, will that help?

They ended up spending a lot of money fixing these tracks because post didn't follow through, and I could have gotten really burned...

Eric Pierce, CAS

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Fora scratch track, it's no problem, but beware that your tracks may carry farther down the chain than you will expect...

I was doing a series a couple of years ago shooting  on varicam, post and I agreed that we would not sent audio to the steadycam, and they would sync audio for that camera from my files.

I get a call a few days into the show from the director, telling me that there is no audio on any of the steadcam footage for dailies.  Apparently, the work flow changed a few times since we had our production meetings, and no one told me that they were now doing dailies right off the HD masters.  I called post and told them that I would put a comtek on the steadycam, but it was only for dailies reference and would need to be replaced by my sound files. They said "no problem," and off we went with the rest of the series.

They never locked picture until after production wrapped, so I wasn't able to sit in on a mix until about the third or forth episode.  At one point, the re-recording mixer turned to me and asked if I ever got the audio problem on the "C" camera fixed.  "Huh?"...  It turned out that regardless of what post, and specifically the assistant editors told me, they never replaced the tracks.  they cut tracks with limited bandwidth comteks, complete with cell phone noise, dropouts, etc., then sent it to the dubbing stage without even a note.

They spent hours on it, and finally called the post super, and told them that they couldn't make the audio broadcast quality.  The post sup said well we have these DEVA discs, will that help?

They ended up spending a lot of money fixing these tracks because post didn't follow through, and I could have gotten really burned...

Eric Pierce, CAS

I just had this problem as well Eric on a feature. after the 2nd day the director comes up to me in a panic asking why the audio is so bad and distorted. I tried to explain that that she was listening to comtek via a RED Camera that had a wireless video unit and wireless focus pulling unit on it. I explained post will sync my tracks later after 3 weeks of shooting Post had yet to sync any of my audio up and was cutting the film with the bad audio. Which is frustrating because everyone thought our audio was terrible unit I had the DIT sync up a few takes and then they realized all was well. I wish editors would sync up our audio quickly so that everyone can have a better idea of what it really sounds like.

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I work with one producer that seems to prefer I use the Comtek as the scratch track. That way it's glaringly obvious it's scratch, and nobody will forget to sync audio. Then again he's the same guy that usually has somebody syncing audio on set and doing rough assemblies as we go.

The obvious advantage of the Comtek, or G2, over something like a proper ENG hop is size/weight and power consumption. I own a Zaxcom hop, but rarely use it on films. I only did it once where I used CH 1 for mix, and CH2 to send TC (I had an XLR - Lemo cable made).

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I just had this problem as well Eric on a feature. after the 2nd day the director comes up to me in a panic asking why the audio is so bad and distorted. I tried to explain that that she was listening to comtek via a RED Camera that had a wireless video unit and wireless focus pulling unit on it. I explained post will sync my tracks later after 3 weeks of shooting Post had yet to sync any of my audio up and was cutting the film with the bad audio. Which is frustrating because everyone thought our audio was terrible unit I had the DIT sync up a few takes and then they realized all was well. I wish editors would sync up our audio quickly so that everyone can have a better idea of what it really sounds like.

There's no excuse for this at all.  It's much more time-consuming and expensive (bring the producers into this conversation) to match up audio after editing of any kind.  With sync programs like pluraleyes and sync-n-link, there's simply no excuse not to sync audio as step one.  I've done stuff with no budgets of any kind, and a quick audio sync has always been step one.  This is why I seriously protest running any kind of audio to camera, unless it is intended as the source for audio throughout the process (which I have only done on shorts).  There are simply too many stories, as shown here, about using Comteks for a scratch track and then being approached about why the audio sucks on dailies (or even worse when it gets further through the process, as described above).  And if it's "good enough" from the G2/G3 or other such receiver on a camera with "acceptable" audio capabilities, they might just change their minds and take that audio all the way through.

I like to know that my name is only going to be associated with production audio which I was monitoring.

Robert

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There's no excuse for this at all.  It's much more time-consuming and expensive (bring the producers into this conversation) to match up audio after editing of any kind.  With sync programs like pluraleyes and sync-n-link, there's simply no excuse not to sync audio as step one.  I've done stuff with no budgets of any kind, and a quick audio sync has always been step one.  This is why I seriously protest running any kind of audio to camera, unless it is intended as the source for audio throughout the process (which I have only done on shorts).  There are simply too many stories, as shown here, about using Comteks for a scratch track and then being approached about why the audio sucks on dailies (or even worse when it gets further through the process, as described above).  And if it's "good enough" from the G2/G3 or other such receiver on a camera with "acceptable" audio capabilities, they might just change their minds and take that audio all the way through.

I like to know that my name is only going to be associated with production audio which I was monitoring.

Robert

You'll love this.....

A few years ago I mixed a film down to a 2-track recorder. No feed to the camera, but camera mic was on for reference + slate.

At some point in the edit process they synced my recordings with the camera.... and then combined everything to one track. Even though they still had the DVDs of my audio, the editor convinced the producers that I mixed everything to one track (including camera mic?!?!) and they would have to pay for ADR. People were too lazy to check. Of course I didn't hear about this till long after ADR was done and paid for.

That's why I keep backups of my recordings. It took 2 minutes to play one and hear distinctly different things on the two tracks. That ignores the magical ability to get the camera track audio on my recorder when no cables connected the two pieces of equipment.

ugh

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