Damien Looney Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Talking with a producer about a doco shoot next summer that will be following an endurance cyclist during the course of a long distance race. Radio mics may not be an option because of the hours that the cyclist will be on the bike (over 12 at any one time), so I wouldn't get a chance to change batteries during the race. I'm thinking that something like an MKH70 may be a good option for micing as we will be based on support vehicles the majority of the time. I love the range of that mic and can see it coming in very handy in this situation. As I've never done sports work before, I'm wondering if I'm overlooking anything that a more seasoned sound person would spot immediately or if there are any ideas for work arounds that people might suggest? Thanks, Damien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Lectrosonics SM series transmitter with Battery eliminator. Then you make a 4 AA little box ( sold at every electronic stores ) and fill it with Lithium AA. That should give you about 20 hours of power with no change. Fit the entire thing in the back pocket of the cycling jersey and you are good to go. DOne it and it works.. Batteries have to be in Parallel so that you add cureent but not voltage. Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margus Jukkum Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 I haven't done endurance sports but I did work for several years on a hospital series where we filmed operations. I found myself in a similar quandary as you are in. Many of the more serious surgeries went on for 12 to 16 hours. Since operating theatres were noisy places I came to rely on the lav on the chief surgeon rather than trying to boom so I had the Micron rep in Toronto machine a special transmitter housing for me that was only slightly larger than their regular 700 series transmitter that held an extra 9 volt battery which doubled the battery life of the unit. The longest I went with it was 11 hours and it was still working. Margus Jukkum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Zaxcom ZFR200 claims up to 14 hours on a single lithium... wouldn't depend on it solely, would boom also, but at 3.1oz + weight of battery, you have the best shot at getting the athlete to agree to wear it due to the minimal weight. If it weren't a race, couldn't help but think that this was designed for this application... http://www.batteryspace.com/waterbottleli-ion18650battery111v104ah11544whwithtrail-techfemaleconnector.aspx ...but of course at over 25 oz for just the battery, no competitor would agree to its weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Lectrosonics SMQV Tx in 100mw mode with Lithium AA is about 14 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 On the lower budget scale, a Sennheiser G2 with lithium batteries should last more than 20 hours, about 10 hours on Procells. Would it be of any benefit to put the lav/tx on the bike instead of the rider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Helemt mount the Lav and TX and see if the team as multiples so that you can alternate with two kits. ZFR200 is also a good option, make sure to jamsync them and then you would have to resync them together... Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Helemt mount the Lav and TX and see if the team as multiples so that you can alternate with two kits. ZFR200 is also a good option, make sure to jamsync them and then you would have to resync them together... Pascal This is the best idea yet IMHO you can rotate between 2 mm400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 I've done a fair amount of work with competitive cyclists; used to be one, too. Is this for some event like Race Across America where riders go for days without much of a stop? I ask because in addition to replacing batteries (an issue nicely answered by several people), some competitors in such events get pretty worked up about extra weight on their body and about the location of mics, wires, and bodypacks...especially a few days into the event. This has more to do with their exhausted mental state than real issues with performance and comfort. I like hiding lavs in helmets, but then you have issues with the cable running down to the TX; I promise that the rider will forget about the mic when he/she tosses off the helmet. Same with glasses. You can stick a mic on the rider's jersey, but on a hot day, the rider may completely zip open the jersey and your mic will be flapping around far away from his/her mouth. And think about protecting the mic and bodypack from the hours of sweat, water, rain, energy crap the athlete will be dumping in and on their body.... A Countryman EMW and a waterproof tx or housing would be handy. Also, I don't know about RAAM, but in most top-level road racing these days, cyclists wear one-way or two-way radios to communicate with (or at least listen to) their coaches. Single ear bud sometimes with a mic down the cable. Do you know if your rider will already be wearing a race radio? If so, fitting another might be frowned upon. Booming from a car...esp. a convertible... has worked pretty well for me. Anyway, what event is this? Road or dirt? 24-hour race, or multi-day stage race? Or something else? HTH, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Helemt mount the Lav and TX and see if the team as multiples so that you can alternate with two kits. I'd think the athlete might be concerned about the extra weight and reduced aerodynamics. Sure, both are negligible. But neck muscles on ultra-distance riders tire (and spasm and fail); I can feel the difference when I have a small GoPro camera on my helmet. And racers get pretty worked up about wind resistance. Also, might be hard to hid the tx from the camera. That could be considered an acceptable look, though. Can't hurt to ask. And Pascal's approach would solve lots of problems for you. But have a backup plan. --Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Looney Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Jim has clocked this one right on the head actually as it's for a British competitor in the RAAM. A road race averaging 20 hours per day in the saddle and taking about 10 straight days to complete. It is a seriously hardcore road race! I haven't had the opportunity to meet with the rider or team yet, but the reason I had thought about booming instead of radio micing is for weight and aerodynamics reasons. I'll have absolutely no control over the mics once the race gets underway. Before I make any decisions about how to work this or what equipment I need, I think it's best to talk to the rider and his team before and see how they want to work. Thanks for the information the mics and the work around. I'll try to use them in my day to day work. Regards, Damien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Boom might be the best (and only) option. I would not want to put myself into a position where the athlete could use me as an excuse for not winning the race. (extra weight, etc) Exactly what sounds are you expecting to pickup? Dialogue? F/X? Racer/Coach comms? Maybe a radio/scanner to hear their communication? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd think recording their comm from an RX would be good, the rest of the S-FX can be done in post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd think recording their comm from an RX would be good, the rest of the S-FX can be done in post. Maybe. However, since we now know the event, Race Across America, I think it's likely the rider will not have a radio. And race radios sound like crap, but that could work for the film.... Damien, have fun figuring this out...no really, should be a fun gig...uh at least for the first few days. I hear RAAM is as hard on the crew as on the racers. I raced mostly before radios were widely used, but man I still have nightmares about the times I did wear them. In road races (with lots of racers competing in a pack) it wasn't so bad. But in a time trial (just you against the clock), you'd have a director sportif (two-wheeled name for coach) "encouraging" you thusly: Marc Madiot Contre la montre, Fdesjeux Ya, this guy is using a speaker... that's just so the rider can't pull out the earbud and ignore him. But this is the Tour de France. RAAM is less amped, more somnambulant. :-) Jim PS- no, I was never that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Some things to consider (which you may have already thought of) -The added weight of even the lightest transmitters on the market will feel like a brick to a rider. The actual weight of the transmitter is negligible but the perceived weight will be far more, especially on his or her body. -If you were to place the transmitter in their jersey pocket the heat and friction generated against their salty, sweaty skin will be be a deal breaker. The rider will rip that thing off and throw it at you after 10 miles. -The cyclist will be going 20-35 miles per hour on average. Wind noise will be something to consider. A fuzzy lav windjammer will be helpful. -Battery life is an obvious issue and has been addressed by other folks. -Think about placing the lav and transmitter on the bike itself. The rider will be hunched over the handle bars the vast majority of the time so placing the lav in the middle of the top bar near where a cyclometer would sit will get you any talking, breathing, ambient noise, etc. The transmitter could be strapped to one of the tubes, but again, weight and aerodynamics being a consideration. One down side in particular to putting it on the bike is that when a rider blows a tire they may swap out bikes and not just the wheel or tire. So, your transmitter will be going wherever that bike goes. If they have more than one bike you could use additional transmitters on the backup cycles. -Using a long shotgun from a chase vehicle is also a great idea. Depending on how close you can get to the cyclist you may be able to get everything you need that way. -Consider that occasionally cyclists crash at moderately high speeds. Think about the safest place for both the rider and your gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 After reading and thinking more about the problem, i think that the best tool would be a ZFR200 recorder with a lav mounted on the bike itself. reasons: 1- Safety, the cylcist could fall and injure himself on the pack. 2- Battery life 3- Weight ( with a litium battery it should be acceptable for the rider. Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvanstry Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 COuld mount the ZFR under the seat, run the lav cable thru the frame for less drag and make it pop out at the derailleur cable exit point near the headstock. Pascal PS. that guy in the video is nuts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McL Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd be hooking up with soundies who've done this before, picking their brains, and reporting back here. Find footage or IMDB, check credits, and call 'em up. Good luck, man; sound like a true sound challenge. Follow this with interest. Jeepers, Jim Feeley, you DID that kinda stuff? Kudos. -- Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanross Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Another issue I've found with riders is the fabric of there racing gear. It tends to be very noisy and pretty much unuseable. Another thing to look into. I'd really try hard to wire the helmet. And I'd use a SMQv with lithium's. You might have to do some DIY on it to fit the transmitter in it. But you would have to talk to him about the weight. It's really not that much but I understand every ounce counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 The bike-mounting idea could work. I think modern RAAM riders spend most of their time in a more-relaxed version of the position of the rider in the videoclip below. So their mouths aren't all that far from the handlebar stem, except when climbing and stretching. But each rider will have multiple bikes. Like three to four, and they may switch between bikes quickly. So consider a recorder for each bike...and think if you'd be able to turn on a spare bike's recorder during a switch. I think in RAAM the rider's speeds average around 15mph. So the wind issues are less extreme (or at least less constant) than with typical road racing. Highest speeds will of course be on descents, but at top speed about the only thing a racer would say would be "aaaaaahhhh!!!!" as he lost control. And let's hope you don't get a chance to get that bite. Jan- ya, I did that kind of racing (in the clip, not RAAM). Emphasis on "did." I got good enough to think I should spend all my time getting better. Didn't get as fast as I'd hoped. Had some good experiences and one really bad experience. Moved on, still ride for fun. Damien- think about how you'll charge batteries in the follow vehicles. I'd think there will be lots of demand for the cigarette outlets. And check out the RAAM site's article about sleep management: http://bit.ly/h32MQo Even more than on many of our jobs, I hear sleep management on RAAM is difficult... Maybe just wire the crew heros and plan to boom the racer. Hopefully you'll shoot a qualifying race, training camp, or something and get a chance to suss out everything before the big show. Have a great time... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 If they have comms, get a RX and record it. Have a boom for Race FX, hydration stops, checkpoints and so on. I worked with lots of athlete's and wireless mics rarely fly with them. There are many good options suggested here, but communication with the coach and athlete before the event is crucial to making a plan/backup plan. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemmerlinj Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 COuld mount the ZFR under the seat, run the lav cable thru the frame for less drag and make it pop out at the derailleur cable exit point near the headstock. Pascal PS. that guy in the video is nuts.... You're assuming that: A: the bike being ridden is using an internally routed cabling system. Quite possible for a professional career cyclist, but possibly not. B: That there would be space for the lav to come out of the frame at the same spot as a derailleur cable. Not likely. Maybe a B6. C: Most professional cyclists will have multiple bikes. Any mechanical malfunction and the team mechanic grabs another bike off the roof rack. You would need to wire every bike, and have the tx's all up and running and ready to go. Because you never know. Case in point The Tour 2010 And Schleck loses the Yellow Jersey in Stage 15 to Alberto Contador because of a chain derailment. Something to think about. The helmet seems like the best idea, but many cyclists like to lose the helmet and may just throw it to the side. Depends on the rules of the race as some you have to always wear a helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagist Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 ...... I'd really try hard to wire the helmet. And I'd use a SMQv with lithium's. You might have to do some DIY on it to fit the transmitter in it. But you would have to talk to him about the weight. It's really not that much but I understand every ounce counts. Might some helmet designs factor in the space in the helmet as an element of the protection and might putting something in that space compromise that. I'd be very wary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Even if the bike did have internal cable routing, and you had space to squeeze a B6 out of there, when riding 20 hours a day, that cable housing is constantly rubbing on the frame, bouncing around, I'd be willing to bet that the contact between the derailleur cable housing and the frame will wear right through a lav cable in a fairly short amount of time. As a bike mechanic, I've replaced lots of internally routed derailleur housing, and most of it has significant wear marks at the intersection of housing / tube. Depending on how the head tube is shaped, you might be able to mount the transmitter on the back side of the head tube, between the top tube and the down tube. That depends on how big the bike is, and how the head tube is shaped. I personally think that recording the radio communications from coach to rider, and booming sounds like a good option. As a cyclist myself, I wouldn't want to wear any more than I have to during an endurance event. I wouldn't care if it was a 1 hour cyclocross race, but at the end of a long day, all the little things add up. I'm very curious to see what you end up doing. Sounds like fun. Good luck. Kelsey You're assuming that: A: the bike being ridden is using an internally routed cabling system. Quite possible for a professional career cyclist, but possibly not. B: That there would be space for the lav to come out of the frame at the same spot as a derailleur cable. Not likely. Maybe a B6. C: Most professional cyclists will have multiple bikes. Any mechanical malfunction and the team mechanic grabs another bike off the roof rack. You would need to wire every bike, and have the tx's all up and running and ready to go. Because you never know. Case in point The Tour 2010 And Schleck loses the Yellow Jersey in Stage 15 to Alberto Contador because of a chain derailment. Something to think about. The helmet seems like the best idea, but many cyclists like to lose the helmet and may just throw it to the side. Depends on the rules of the race as some you have to always wear a helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 most helmet designs factor in the space in the helmet as an element of the protection... from a safety standpoint, the only safe mounting is probably on the outside of the helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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