Brian Liston Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 There is a way to do this "flip" elegantly Glenn. The Access Virus since the "C" version, then improved on the "TI" line allowed several usable options for using pots in place of endless encoders. There are different modes for different uses. OFF - As you would imagine. Off JUMP - When pot is moved, it jumps immediately to the new knob position SNAP - The Value is not changed until the original value is reached. Much like the "Pick-up" mode on SSL VCA based automation like th 4000 series. REL - The value immediately changes in the direction of knob movement without jumping. But limits may not be reachable directly – knob positions only reflect values after the original (stored) value has been reached. For example: let's say a knob has values from 0-100, from 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock, with 7 being 0 and 5 being 100. If a knob is at 12, which would yield a value of 50 under normal circumstances, but the value is assigned at 75. When the knob is turned clockwise, the value will change smoothly from 75 to 100 as the limit is approached. The REL mode is enhanced by the display showing the value of the knob when "twiddled." I think the display on the Nmad is big and detailed enough to show such data. The 6 faders are pots and not encoders so this flip feature would not be possible. It is also very unnecessary as "auto-trim" allows for instant access to all trim adjustments via the menu encoder. The menu will instantly show the input meter and the position of the adjustment. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 " maybe I'm the only one...... " proving once again: You can't please all of the people on jwsound.net, EVER! perhaps speak with Tom Visser, as he is custom building mixers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actualsizeaudio Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 " maybe I'm the only one...... " proving once again: You can't please all of the people on jwsound.net, EVER! perhaps speak with Tom Visser, as he is custom building mixers... I'm going to disagree with the "flip" sentiment of your post. This isn't some small "power button on the side" issue. I believe no preamp trims on this beast will be a reason for many people to pass on getting one without even trying it out, and that's a shame. I'm proposing something that would immediately take that concern away from potential users who aren't willing to lay down 4-6K in the hopes that this auto trim feature works for them. Maybe I'll love auto trim? Maybe I'll find that I grab that menu knob positive that the last fader I touched was the boom, and end up cranking up my lav track thus ruining sound for a brief moment. I think either of those last 2 modes B-grade suggested would work really well. I think that a flip mode for this unit would help sell it to ENG guys who are just too nervous to invest in liking Auto Trim. It's obvious how proud of Auto Trim the Zaxcom team is and that is great, but the fact that Glenn used the phrase "very unnecessary" to describe a different way of working I think reflects a bit of insensitivity to the fact that everyone works differently. Sure, when you are sitting at a cart you can see which preamp trim is selected on the home screen. When you are booming and laving people while moving around you can't always do that. I think the whole purpose of having a menu driven digital mixer for field use is to have the unit be as flexible as possible in order to work in as many different ways as possible. I'd urge Glenn to think about it. I think this is a feature that could take away some reservations some people might have with the unit. Remember, not everyone is going to be in the position of using for a few weeks before deciding if they want one. This would surely help alleviate concerns without having to change the unit at all. It would just be yet another feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think they have done a great job on this unit.... It is light years of an improvement over most other options in my opinion... I tried the auto trim and it worked as explained... I saw no problem in it what-so-ever... On a cart, or, in a bag... I really don't know just how much you can pack into a chassis of this size and offer so much. Will this recorder/mixer make everyone happy doing so many types of field sound work? Who knows... and probably not... I for one will buy one as soon as it comes out, learn all I can about it's operation, bend and flex along with it's capabilities, keep an ear open for updates and mods and move forward happily for 4 to 6 grand... A fair price in my book... Glenn is trying to get this unit out and soon... I am happy to take what he has given us at this stage and work with it... Will it shine my shoes? probably not, does it have a turbo? no, but as it sits it is very capable now indeed. Ideas are good, but remember, there will always be those that have reservations for one reason or another. Can't please them all, you just can't... Future updates will probably spin our heads some more, I would say, be patient... Oh, and.... You'll probably end up cranking up the Lav and ruining a track anyhow, without the feature.... That's just life as a mixer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 When a product like Nomad is designed there are about 10,000 decisions that go into the process. We agonize over the location of every switch, pot, connector and every other detail both major and esoteric. We take into account the experience of our users and I rely on my own feelings on what we need and what we don't. Nomad is the result of a design process that will be 2 years old this August. While we can change software based details we cannot change the hardware at this point and I do not think we need to. The "auto trim" function in my opinion has many advantages over push up trim knobs. (Input metering, no pot noise, faster access) When you look at Nomad on a feature/price/performance basis I do not think anyone will be disappointed. I am sure everyone will find a feature or two that they will need to get used to but that is how it is with everything. I am sure as a whole Nomad will be a valuable tool for any sound professional and I hope it becomes a personal favorite to all. We will get the unit into the hands of our beta customers soon. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 When will it be avail to non-Beta users? phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I regret that I can not give an accurate answer on delivery until our beta customers have had a go at it. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I think every switch and control should be located on the upper right corner of the front panel so I can get to them with my left hand while booming with my right hand. Funny... I was writing this nonsense to make a point, and then realized that the menu encoder/switch essentially does much of that very thing. As for the position of the power switch, it is in the same position as the Deva and Fusion recorders, except that it is on the right side instead of the left side. I have many years of use with these recorders, in the bag and on the cart, and the switch position has never been a problem. All ENG bags that I am aware of have side access that makes the Nomad switch easy to get to. Regarding the concern of a three position power switch (INT-OFF-EXT) vs a two position power switch (OFF-ON), I'll mention -- like others have -- that the Deva and Fusion recorders also have this two position power switch design, which has turned out to be a very good thing. I allows going from external power to internal power and back to external power seamlessly, and even allows the internal batteries to be changed without powering down the recorder. The only inconvenience this causes is that, if keeping batteries inside the recorder while power externally, then you have to manually power down the recorder (slide the power switch) even if powering down your entire rig with a BDS or other power supply. When considering "safety first", the two position switch is probably the better choice. Regarding the use of input trims to ride levels instead of using the fader controls, I'm curious why someone would prefer this practice. I think it is likely a hold-over from the days of older, noisier equipment with less gain, when trying to maximize signal noise, and before the days of prefader isolation tracks. The problems this practice causes with a device's gain structure for the dynamics of voice recording (which is essentially a moving target) may be for another post. But for now, suffice it to say that riding levels with the input trim means that you don't have prefader isolation tracks. Regarding Jeff Wexler's unanswered question about the safety of powering on and off the equipment in a typical sound cart or bag individually or all at once with a master switch, I'll say this: To find out if this would cause any problems, I have, for many years, used the BDS and MEON power systems to turn on and off my entire cart and bag, and it has never caused a problem. So consider this myth to be busted, at least with gear typical of the sound bags and sound carts. This includes equipment rigs that used Deva and Fusion recorders, so I have to assume that the same will be true with the Nomad. If, at some point, a particular piece of equipment comes around that is sensitive to this type of master switch off-on, on-off practice, then my experience suggests that it would be a problem with the design of that particular piece of equipment rather than the practice of using a master on-off switch. Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Glen said: "Regarding Jeff Wexler's unanswered question about the safety of powering on and off the equipment in a typical sound cart or bag individually or all at once with a master switch, I'll say this: To find out if this would cause any problems, I have, for many years, used the BDS and MEON power systems to turn on and off my entire cart and bag, and it has never caused a problem. So consider this myth to be busted..." I think you might have confused one of my concerns with a question by someone else; I have never thought that any of the equipment that I have been using would react badly to having the powering pulled to shut it down (instead of using the power switches individually). My comment or observation regarding this issue was the issue of having a battery fitted (in the Deva for example) that would prevent you from powering it down just by killing the external power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Glen said: "Regarding the use of input trims to ride levels instead of using the fader controls, I'm curious why someone would prefer this practice. I think it is likely a hold-over from the days of older, noisier equipment with less gain, when trying to maximize signal noise, and before the days of prefader isolation tracks." I agree completely with this and I am still puzzled by those who feel that it is vital to be able to do the old "two handed" mixing we used to do. Without hurting anyone's feelings, I do have a suspicion that having to adjust input trims AND faders, or worse, using INPUT trims to control gain to the output buss, indicates a lack of understanding of the fundamentals of gain or possibly the use of gear that has really peculiar gain structure. In practice, at least for me, once the input gain (preamp) is set properly for the specification and sensitivity of the source plugged in, there is seldom if ever a need to change it. But maybe that's just me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actualsizeaudio Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Regarding the use of input trims to ride levels instead of using the fader controls, I'm curious why someone would prefer this practice. I I simply am not in a situation to ride levels all that much, and I would NEVER do that with a preamp pot. I only adjust the input trims to achieve proper gain structure in relationship to preamp and microphone. I happen to find that this changes as I get into situations where the source goes from quiet to screaming loud. I don't own a mixing device that has a perfect preamp setting for every dynamic range I might encounter. The fact that things are most often recorded pre-fader now is the reason why my fader pots go unused. Glenn, my suggestion was a software based suggestion, and only a feature suggestion. It's a feature most digital mixers have, and I still hope you keep it in mind for the future. -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actualsizeaudio Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 In practice, at least for me, once the input gain (preamp) is set properly for the specification and sensitivity of the source plugged in, there is seldom if ever a need to change it. But maybe that's just me? Oh, I'm sure it's not just you, it's the sort of work that you do, and the fact that you probably get to work on better, more organized/civilized jobs. The other day I did a really silly hidden camera style advertisement where I was booming these 2 people talking (softly). We had to follow them into this conference room. In the conference room were 20 screaming people. I wasn't given any warning whatsoever (probably because they didn't want talent to know). I could have fadered down my distorting mic preamp while I walked backwards, but luckily I was able to pull down the trim on the preamp quick enough where there was only a short moment of uglyness. I just find getting to that adjustment as quick as possible often times makes the difference. It has nothing to do with lack of knowledge of gain structure. It has to do with lack of love for odd series harmonics..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Capulli Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 HOW CAN I BECOME A BETA CUSTOMER?!?!?!?!? Also I own and love my Access Virus KC. Amazing machine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 You did a great job designing Nomad!!! I would like to be a Beta tester and am willing to pay for a 6 channel one. I just sold my 744t and would rather pay full price and be a beta tester then rent every time I need to record isos. When a product like Nomad is designed there are about 10,000 decisions that go into the process. We agonize over the location of every switch, pot, connector and every other detail both major and esoteric. We take into account the experience of our users and I rely on my own feelings on what we need and what we don't. Nomad is the result of a design process that will be 2 years old this August. While we can change software based details we cannot change the hardware at this point and I do not think we need to. The "auto trim" function in my opinion has many advantages over push up trim knobs. (Input metering, no pot noise, faster access) When you look at Nomad on a feature/price/performance basis I do not think anyone will be disappointed. I am sure everyone will find a feature or two that they will need to get used to but that is how it is with everything. I am sure as a whole Nomad will be a valuable tool for any sound professional and I hope it becomes a personal favorite to all. We will get the unit into the hands of our beta customers soon. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDirckze Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Also I own and love my Access Virus KC. Amazing machine! +1 - Previous Virus Rack XL owner and now Indigo II owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 " riding levels with the input trim means that you don't have prefader isolation tracks. " I tend to agree: once the trim is properly set for the source it is trimming, then the channel gain control (fader) is the appropriate control... " HOW CAN I BECOME A BETA CUSTOMER?!?!?!?!? " Carefully selecting appropriate BETA testers is not just a simple matter of providing units to the most anxious customers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Capulli Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 " riding levels with the input trim means that you don't have prefader isolation tracks. " I tend to agree: once the trim is properly set for the source it is trimming, then the channel gain control (fader) is the appropriate control... " HOW CAN I BECOME A BETA CUSTOMER?!?!?!?!? " Carefully selecting appropriate BETA testers is not just a simple matter of providing units to the most anxious customers... jeez. thanks for the reality check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actualsizeaudio Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 " riding levels with the input trim means that you don't have prefader isolation tracks. " I tend to agree: once the trim is properly set for the source it is trimming, then the channel gain control (fader) is the appropriate control... Obviously. But this assumes that there are no drastic changes in your source, and that you need to make a mix of some sort. I haven't made a mix for anyone other then myself (headphones) in quite some time. The stuff I seem to be doing lately is all pre-fader capture stuff where my job is to get things on tape as clean as possible, and only the isos are used in the edit. Somehow my suggestion got interpreted as me saying Zaxcom made a mistake with the physical layout. They didn't: the whole reason I'm buying one (I'm on the list at one of our favorite vendors) is because it will integrate with my other Zaxcom stuff better then what I have, and because it will be smaller than what I have. The reason it will be smaller is because they economized on faders and knobs: a great decision. I just see this suggestion as a software based way to maximize what they put on there for guys like me who might want instant access to all of those preamp trims at the same time without having to change the level it sits at in the mix. Multitracking live music, rolling while booming, walking backwards, and getting an earful from the producer are all situations where it would be useful. How this got interpreted into me wanting to ride mix levels with preamp trim is completely beyond me, and if that's my fault, I apologize. I don't think anyone who bothers to come on here doesn't understand the difference between their faders and their preamp trims! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 " I don't think anyone who bothers to come on here doesn't understand the difference between their faders and their preamp trims! " I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 We are adding new capability to Nomad to assign any input trim control to a hardware fader. In this way the faders can be any combination of channel faders and input trims. For example you can have faders 1-3 control the fader function of channels 1-3 while faders 4-6 control the input trim values of channels 1-3. If desired any combination of faders could be set to input trim. The assignment is done via the Fader assign menu. The hardware faders can now be assigned as channel faders, input trims and Zaxnet controls for wireless transmitters. I believe auto-trim will negate the need for any assignment of input trim to a hardware fader. But, then again, who am I to blow against the wind. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Capulli Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 wow awesome Glenn. I'm definitely sold on one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Glenn, could you clear something up for me regarding auto-trim (which I think is a fantastic idea btw) If say, you have Zax wireless coming into inputs 1 and 2, and you assign faders 1 and 2 to control the mix levels in the mix, will the auto-trim knob control the input level, or the zax transmitter gain? I know there is the zaxnet menu that lets you control the gain of the TX, but it would be great to automatically control the TX gain with the menu knob in auto trim, rather than use the fader. Using the fader turns down the TX pre, and would reduce the iso level and the mix level together. Using the auto-trim knob would turn down the pre, reduce the iso accordingly, and leave its relative level in the mix untouched (it would obviously become lower in the mix) but there would be more control. I hope what I've written makes sense. Anyone else think this is necessary/ would be nice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 If say, you have Zax wireless coming into inputs 1 and 2, and you assign faders 1 and 2 to control the mix levels in the mix, will the auto-trim knob control the input level, or the zax transmitter gain The auto - trim feature will control just the trim. The transmitter gain can be adjusted through the Zaxnet menu. Given that I believe (but not 100% sure) that with the new fader assign menu that Glenn just announced you can assign a particular fader to actually control transmitter gain - but this should be verified from Glenn. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thanks Jack. It's great that we can now control all inputs (Glenn mentioned it does the TRX pres as well below) from the front faders as well as with the auto-trim knob, but I just guessed that it would be possible to assign the auto-trim knob to a TRX, seeing as we can assign a fader to do it. If not, it's still a great system. I guess if you had to, you could expand the unit with the fader module and use the extra faders as TRX trims...but it would be more elegant (read: perfect) to trim everything 'kind' of input with the one knob. If that's the only demerit I can find with this unit though, then that's fine by me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg sextro Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 I would love if you could implement this with the Fusion as well. -Greg- We are adding new capability to Nomad to assign any input trim control to a hardware fader. In this way the faders can be any combination of channel faders and input trims. For example you can have faders 1-3 control the fader function of channels 1-3 while faders 4-6 control the input trim values of channels 1-3. If desired any combination of faders could be set to input trim. The assignment is done via the Fader assign menu. The hardware faders can now be assigned as channel faders, input trims and Zaxnet controls for wireless transmitters. I believe auto-trim will negate the need for any assignment of input trim to a hardware fader. But, then again, who am I to blow against the wind. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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