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It's gratifying to watch a movie you mixed and hear production tracks


Mark LeBlanc

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Just finished watching (well listening mostly) a movie I mixed last year and can hear those wonderfully fought for production dialog tracks. It was a tough shoot, tons of steady cam and the old faithful Tram Tr50 carried the day on the lead actress when Mr Steadycam or multicam was in use.. A tip of the hat to my Boom Op Matty Boom Boom, it was his first show and about to start our 6th movie as a team next week..

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  • 5 weeks later...

Congratulations Mark!

Once in my life - only once - I sat in a theater and watched (and listened!) to a film where my production sound started at the first frame, and continued till the last credit, with only the addition of M&E and two off-screen lines; zero ADR.

I wept....

Jay P.

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As much as I enjoyed watching films I worked on play on the big screen, seeing/hearing them projected in dallies without all the post work involved was even better IMO. That was my sound n film education, no offense to USC Film School. I learned more about sound, camera, directing, acting, and editing then I ever would have otherwise. To bad this practice is a thing of the past. These days I see some of the commercials I work on play at the Multiplex and I can say for sure that the thrill is gone when I do;~)

CrewC

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  • 4 months later...

So, this is gonna sound weird, but has anyone ever found their production tracks to be too clean?

I'll elaborate:

I recently mixed a pilot based on a team of league bowlers... I saw a finished cut a few nights ago and it was great -- the production dialog was some of the best we've ever gotten, IMHO...

I never in 20 years of production sound thought I'd ever say this, but the M&E was so far back, and the dialog was so clean that the final product came out sounding a bit sterile and unnatural...

I voiced my opinion to one of the exec. producers, and he was a little shocked that I'd say something like that, but as great as the dialog tracks sounded, I'm left wondering if I didn't get enough ambience for the post people, or if they just had a different "vision" for the project.

In any case, I'm just wondering if anyone else here has ever experienced this.

~tt

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So, this is gonna sound weird, but has anyone ever found their production tracks to be too clean?

I'll elaborate:

I recently mixed a pilot based on a team of league bowlers... I saw a finished cut a few nights ago and it was great -- the production dialog was some of the best we've ever gotten, IMHO...

I never in 20 years of production sound thought I'd ever say this, but the M&E was so far back, and the dialog was so clean that the final product came out sounding a bit sterile and unnatural...

I voiced my opinion to one of the exec. producers, and he was a little shocked that I'd say something like that, but as great as the dialog tracks sounded, I'm left wondering if I didn't get enough ambience for the post people, or if they just had a different "vision" for the project.

In any case, I'm just wondering if anyone else here has ever experienced this.

~tt

I just had the same experience I saw a test screening of movie I mixed this year set in 1890. There was a scene on a dock in the middle of nowhere on a river it was a great location for audio. We have the actors wired in case they decided to have the talent row the boat up to the dock but we had perfect boom placement and the background stayed consistent the whole time we shot. When I saw the scene at the screening I could tell they used the lav mics which sounded sterile and made the scene sound much more contemporary then the rest of the film. I felt sad listening to the scene as I felt so proud of the boom track we captured and I felt it was the best sounding scene of the movie. I suspect that someone felt that the water hitting the boat in the river or some of the wildlife that was present competed too much with the dialogue but to me it let the location really become a character in the scene and I like what it added.

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I'm wondering how much you guys are in touch with the producers and the post production engineers after your job is done? The reason I ask, is that last year I started to get a lot of ADR work and we rarely contacted the production mixers... sort of seemed like the production mixer was out of the picture entirely at that point. I wonder if you would really know if you had ADR on the production dialogue unless you specifically went and hunted people down and asked? Granted, I've never done ADR where I couldn't 100% tell that it wasn't production, but when done right and working with an actor that is experienced at ADR (or doing 30+ passes), we've gotten really really close - at least as far as lip synch and performance. My work would then go to the dubbing stage where the other post soundies would add the reverb and do final editing to make it all match, presumably absolutely seamless in the best case, and professionally passable in the worst.

One one hand, if I'm the production mixer, I don't think that I'd chase down everyone and ask about ADR (see the ADR professional or just part of the process thread) as I'd be a little self conscious about being a nuisance. And on the flip side, from the ADR mixer's perspective, we never have put blame on the production mixer, especially those of use who don't sit in an AC'd office behind a desk 24/7, as we know the challenges that meet a mixer on a day to day basis and compromised sound "just happens" to even the best of the best.

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I have felt this regularly, on my shows and others, where I know that little to no ADR was used.

Dialog tracks are often "enhanced" to the point of sounding like ADR.

I am usually careful to let my mix track "breathe" a little, with help from my boom operators and our mic choices. But even so, especially on TV, I find the sound to be very artificial.

But as pointed out, once we deliver our tracks, it becomes someone else's decision as to what to do with them.

I am always proud of the time and effort put forth by my crew and myself, and I am proud my current show is successful, but the thrill is gone a bit. I get more out of listening to lower budget stuff I've done with less post work performed.

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I could see noise reduction, either automated or manual, done from the get go... sort of a "wash everything with bleach" and then start working on it from there type of workflow being the default. I don't do any Dx editing myself, but given timetables and budgets, I could very easily see someone who is not as emotionally married to the material as yourself going hog wild on the processing side. I think that there would be much less tolerance for any noise, even if natural sound, making it through unscathed. Maybe they should make post sound people do a mandatory tour of duty as a production mixer or assistant / intern and get instilled a "do no harm" type of manifesto as a mantra in whatever training regiment they go through.

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...The person who was posting was a post production person and said that they completely disregard the "mix" track and load up the isolated tracks and make their own mix from the elements. A sad commentary on the skills and ability of a production mixer, but this is all part of an evolutionary process in how our job is performed....

Cheers,

Rich Van Dyke

I don't know if it necessarily speaks to the inability of the Production Sound Mixer (or maybe in that case it did) so much as to the M.O. of the Post people... to "completely disregard the mix track", IMHO, is a bit of a slap in the face to a Production Sound Mixer who really takes pride in his work, and feels good about a particular day, or scene, or even take.. on any given job. If I'm understanding the comment correctly, this person is pretty much saying carte blanche that the original dialog mix is completely disregarded. I can understand how that would become a standard M.O. after trying to mix several takes wherein the mix was flawed in some way -- fader cues were missed and/or there really was nothing useful on the boom at all (which might also speak to the Boom Op's inability)... but I would think that unless one is really pressed for time (or they're just collecting a paycheck and don't care) that they'd at least examine the finished product for the overall "feel"... and perhaps re-visit some of the original tracks (whether sync, wild, ambience, etc.) and make a more concerted effort to make the thing sound "real"...

I missed the showtime today for the feature I mixed a while back, but I'll be really interested to see (hear) what these post production people (same guys as the bowling pilot) did with this feature...

crossing my fingers : )

~tt

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  • 3 weeks later...

i just got a link to a online screener of a feature I did a few months ago, the director sent it to me to check out the sound. The lazy ass editors used the IN CAMERA AUDIO!!! bastards. I sent the directors a few iso tracks from a scene and he was floored. he couldnt believe they did that to his mix. so we will see what happens now...

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" The lazy ass editors "

or are they ??

This "Feature" you did... tell us more, please.

I'd be especially interested in what the budget was, what the time frame (production schedule) was, and then, yes, what about the post..??

Union gig?? I think not...

<open mouth, insert foot>

I get a lo/no budget feeling, as well as an inexperienced wanna' bee's at the helm, and maybe FCsP for the entire "post"...and no actual sound editor(s)...

and what range of pay + rental did you get ? what was you package ?? how big was your sound crew? (I'm guessing again <insert other foot> that you got little, if anything, for a one person audio department with a mixer/recorder (your 552+788t) over your shoulder while you also boomed. I also <sorry, I'm out of feet> guess there wasn't much, if any separate audio post. and BTW, did you feed your audio to the camcorder(s) ?? or was camera audio just a camera-mic??

Reza, please tell me my radar is broken, and I'm full of CRAP. really... please!

(and please understand, I'm not ranting about your doing the movie, just your expectations of it)

Edited by studiomprd
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" The lazy ass editors "

or are they ??

This "Feature" you did... tell us more, please.

I'd be especially interested in what the budget was, what the time frame (production schedule) was, and then, yes, what about the post..??

Union gig?? I think not...

<open mouth, insert foot>

I get a lo/no budget feeling, as well as an inexperienced wanna' bee's at the helm, and maybe FCsP for the entire "post"...and no actual sound editor(s)...

and what range of pay + rental did you get ? what was you package ?? how big was your sound crew? (I'm guessing again <insert other foot> that you got little, if anything, for a one person audio department with a mixer/recorder (your 552+788t) over your shoulder while you also boomed. I also <sorry, I'm out of feet> guess there wasn't much, if any separate audio post. and BTW, did you feed your audio to the camcorder(s) ?? or was camera audio just a camera-mic??

Reza, please tell me my radar is broken, and I'm full of CRAP. really... please!

jesus. who is this guy?

the film was : http://www.imdb.com/...998402/combined

I had a 3 person sound crew everyday of 26 days, budget was close to a million (most going to above the line as far as I know)

Not sure anyone was an inexperienced wannabe in terms of directorial dept. or production company. you be the judge of that (since your so judgeMental, it shouldnt be a stretch)

range of pay was in the very comfortable range. rental as well.

my package was really simple. 552+ 788 on a cart with 2 booms (wireless) and a lectro tray with 6 wireless , 2 wireless hops to 2 cameras, comteks for everyone necessary. shot on 2 Red Mx cameras, TC sync everywhere, lockits, slate etc.

editorial was at the production companies post facilities. I guess the feed of my "mix" to cameras sounded good "enough" for them to forgo syncing Iso trax etc, I believe the director is pushing for a new mix with all the correct ISo stems.

as far as your radar goes, im not going to speak on that. but you might have a case of mouth diarrhea. I cant see the wisdom in berating fellow sound mixers and being snarky on such a friendly board. but every post you make seems to have an edge to it.

now I dont know you, and you might just be a fun guy having fun on the internet, or you might be the baddest sound mixer in the world, either way i think you could get alot farther by just chillin out man.

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The Senator may have made a lot of assumptions, but given the history of these types of comments and threads, he was going on precedent.

What jumps out at me is the fact that you sent a mix to camera, which they used, which apparently even you thought sucked. You weren't complaining about the quality of the camera audio, you were complaining they didn't re-mix you. Most of us complain when we ARE remixed.

If you're just tracking audio, and not providing a satisfactory mix for at least most of the project, then this is something you ought to tell the producers and director.

There isn't much money on a $1m budget, with most of the budget going above the line, to remix the audio from the ISO tracks.

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While the quality of the preamps on the Red (or any other camera) might not be as great as the quality of what a purpose-built system like the 552 / 788T combo used on the aforementioned project could produce, I'd have to agree with Robert -- in a way, I'd be flattered that they liked my mix -- it speaks just as much to ones ability as a Mixer as it does to their lack of budget or time.

Obviously, the 788T tracks would be superior, and importing / using the ISO's would probably produce a better end product, in the hands (and ears) of a skilled Post Pro. team -- given enough time to do their magic... but their decision to use the on-board (scratch) tracks shouldn't reflect negatively on the PSM. I'd take it as a compliment.

...just my $.02

~tt

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For years n decades the mix track we recorded was our only track and it was used in the final mix most of the time and I see no reason it shouldn't still be used the majority of the time if is of a certain quality. The surprise for me in this situation is that editorial didn't import the mix sound file from the recorder and use them instead of the embedded Red files sound. It's their movie, but....

As for the Senator, I gotta say you threw a good punch Reza. All true that he made an assumption that was off base in this situation. The bad news is Mike can take a punch but he can't be KO'ed. Peace n love to all combatants here @jwsoundgroup.net

CrewC

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Unless I'm mistaken, the recent poster was not complaining they didn't use the 788 mix track instead of the RED audio, but complaining they didn't remix the ISO tracks instead of using the mix track.

They might have elected to use the camera mix because that's what they had budgeted, and had no reason to believe it was inferior.

I continue to state, if you send audio to camera, it better be good enough to use. Otherwise don't send it. That's my philosophy.

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