RPSharman Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 I'll start by saying I have never done a DSLR project, and only have knowledge of assistant editors successfully using Sync n Link on some RED projects. But there were some behind-the-scenes guys hanging around on set the other day, and they had a DSLR. We chatted a bit about syncing, and they mentioned that sometimes PluralEyes gets confused in narrative work. The issue, I guess, is that with multiple takes of essentially the same performance, the waveform recognition software can have multiple matches. Anyone here experience this on their DSLR shoots? Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 No personal experience, but that is a very interesting observation. Just as we often do a wild line reading to try and replace an on camera sync delivery, it is nor surprising that PluralEyes could have a problem like this --- multiple line readings that are essentially the same. I do suppose, though, that the linear time frame for multiple lines of dialog with similar wave forms, would be known by PluralEyes, lessening the chance of mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 The answer is yes, PluralEyes can confuse takes and sync incorrectly. I recently did both production sound and post editing/mixing on a project where PluralEyes was used. It was a multicam RED shoot and I sent solid guide tracks to both cameras for dailies and syncing. I found at least a dozen takes where PluralEyes picked the wrong take for the video. In the end I simply checked with the video editor regarding which take was used and I pulled it from the source files. It was a hassle because after I found the first few incorrect files I began second guessing a lot of other clips. It definitely added time to the audio editing process. So, again, something where time is saved in the video side of things it adds more time on to audio! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 PE works best if you can lay out all the clips in a row in a sequence with all the audio as well. For projects where there is repetition of dialog (ie commercials and to a less extent drama) good slates and notes are still vital (as well as having the person slating at least announce "marker one" etc). As was said, PE works better on verite/free form/non-repetitive sorts of material, esp if there are no slates. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Haven't posted much, as I enjoy learning from other more experienced people on the forum, but think i may have something to contribute here. I have used PE to sync footage with DSLR, RED, and DV projects. I have found that you can alleviate confusion by having the slate markings read aloud by the clapper operator in drama situations. The take numbers will generate discrete wave forms at the head of each file, and thus give a unique to each take file for the program to use. I also note that making sure that the scratch audio is clean helps PE a LOT..... YMMV, but I am happy with this so far... Chris M in atlanta.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 The take numbers will generate discrete wave forms at the head of each file, and thus give a unique to each take file for the program to use. Ah, that's a handy tip. I'll use that, the next time I'm on a Canon 5D shoot. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Second that. When I get a problem like that I just run a batch with TRY HARDER enabled. Takes more time. PE works best if you can lay out all the clips in a row in a sequence with all the audio as well. For projects where there is repetition of dialog (ie commercials and to a less extent drama) good slates and notes are still vital (as well as having the person slating at least announce "marker one" etc). As was said, PE works better on verite/free form/non-repetitive sorts of material, esp if there are no slates. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 ...I have used PE to sync footage with DSLR, RED, and DV projects. I have found that you can alleviate confusion by having the slate markings read aloud by the clapper operator in drama situations. The take numbers will generate discrete wave forms at the head of each file, and thus give a unique to each take file for the program to use... Excellent tip. Thank you. I always prefer having the CLAPPER/AC do a voice slate, but sometimes productions are "too cool" to fully embrace "old school" methods. This gives a good, solid reason why it's as important as ever.l Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bondelev Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Second that. When I get a problem like that I just run a batch with TRY HARDER enabled. Takes more time. The exact same note I would give to my assistant in the old days when everything was synched by hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Hilarious that the function is named "try harder"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singular_Bruce Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Hi folks, Bruce from Singular Software here. With respect to PluralEyes syncing to the wrong take when there are very similar takes, we are working on some things to improve that. If it happens on your project, feel free to contact us at support at singularsoftware dot com and we'll help resolve it. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Hi folks, Bruce from Singular Software here. Welcome, Bruce. I saw that you signed up and I'm sure there are many here who will be pleased that you will be around to answer questions directly about your incredibly useful software. Regards, Jeff Wexler, CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Welcome, Bruce!! Your software has been talked about a GREAT deal on this site, and is clearly a fantastic tool. Congratulations on developing such a useful product. Robert Hi folks, Bruce from Singular Software here. With respect to PluralEyes syncing to the wrong take when there are very similar takes, we are working on some things to improve that. If it happens on your project, feel free to contact us at support at singularsoftware dot com and we'll help resolve it. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Welcome, Bruce. I've recommended your software to many others who have been quite happy with it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Welcome, I'm pleased to recommend PluralEyes to my students! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Yes indeed, welcome Bruce. Glad you made the effort to join jwsound and participate and educate us. I am a user and fan of PluralEyes and have never run into the issue. I do Docs n Internet Context/Product videos when I use your software. We often work off scripts but the readings vary a lot. This is a side business for me and my neighbor. PluralEyes has saved us a lot of time syncing our sound and 5D video. It is really a great product. Thanks. My main money making job is recording sound for commercials and I see how they could be very similar in their waveform patterns, but I would think my voice slate at the head of the take and I voice tail slate as well, would vary the waveform of each take enough that this issue wouldn't show up. I'm sure whatever issues are at hand the Singular Team will fix it soon. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I would think my voice slate at the head of the take and I voice tail slate as well, would vary the waveform of each take enough that this issue wouldn't show up. I'm sure whatever issues are at hand the Singular Team will fix it soon. CrewC I think the problem there would be that head and tail IDs on sound are often spoken when the camera has not yet rolled and/or has already cut, at least in my case. But on a DSLR (PluaralEyes) show, I suppose it would be easy to adopt the practice of speaking the head ID as the slate is being captured (perhaps at the expense of the clap). Our show is operated by "film" guys who turn the cameras on at the last second and cut very quickly. Although this practice (along with waiting for "sound speed" or bothering to cut at all), is becoming more and more rare. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 It could be so Robert but I tend to Vo Slate when they are hitting the stix or just after, seldom before. Also the AD's spiel and the call of action all vary take to take. I wonder how often this comes up w PluralEyes users? Anything is possible. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngooch Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 When feeding a scratch track to camera, at the beginning of the file, i send a short blast of tone.. This provides PE with a very clear waveform signature. I vary the number of blasts and duration just to make each take different. My colleague dave winston suggested this and it really does help! john. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 When feeding a scratch track to camera, at the beginning of the file, i send a short blast of tone.. This provides PE with a very clear waveform signature. I vary the number of blasts and duration just to make each take different. My colleague dave winston suggested this and it really does help! john. This also is a very handy visual ref for take starts if you've been rolling wild beforehand (as in verite), and is a really good device for checking sync--esp if the wfms end up being different because the scratch mix is very diff from your production mix. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Waldron Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Wow, what's the problem with syncing every take manually? Gives you a chance to look at the footage and take some notes. Could even make some bins...... You will also know what you have, or don't have.......can we all slow it down just a bit? Where is the Moviola.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 When feeding a scratch track to camera, at the beginning of the file, i send a short blast of tone.. This provides PE with a very clear waveform signature. I vary the number of blasts and duration just to make each take different. My colleague dave winston suggested this and it really does help! john. Nice one.That's a handy tip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Kersten Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Just finished a 30 day documentary shot on a DSLR. I lock my lock it and put it on the shoulder rig for the DSLR. I got a bnc (tc out of lock it) to minijack cable (mic in DSLR) and the camera records the audio timecode. Editor is very pleased. This is the way I shoot on DSLR shoots. We also did a boom clap for safety. The only downside is when also sending a mixdown to the dslr (for example mixdown = left and tc signal = right) that there is some TC bleeding into the mixdown. My TC only cable (bnc to minijaxk) is -20db. And my bnc to stereo minijack is -40 db. I always try to work this way and sort out the sync during the shoot not after! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 In fact, I think this problem could be used in a positive way to match some parts af audio (be it tiny or longer) on recorded parts that aren't clean enough to the editor (honk, bird chip, etc...). For these times when "yeah, I understand but we have to move on because there's not enough time", you know ? ("have a happy ediitng" is usually my line in these situations) ;-) So, along with the "try harder" function, there could be a "match something there" function ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 i have just completed a job with x2 5d's and a 7d. I used x3 G3 units with hot shoes for the camera mounts. A+B camera where on medium primes and C camera was on a longer lens most of the time. We recorded in double system mode. Most of the performance was not scripted and A+B camera handheld. I recommended that a clapper board be used with no stop starts within the rolls/ takes. a good ID and pip either @ start or end created enough elements to use for syncing the pictures. I even use this process on RED cameras. Also setting the code to time of day and have it appear on the PDF reports helps the offline "track" the rushes with the script supervisor's day log. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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