DPs handling your negotiations on ENG gigs

[Jose]

I feel that this is an issue that I haven't seen brought up in our forums. How common a practice is this?.

I would like to see myself work ENG gigs more often than I do. But the problem is that there is a practice that I see happen way too often. And that is when a network hires a news crew, they will hire a DP first and then the DP will go out and hire a sound mixer. Certain DPs will take advantage of this. And when the DP finds the sound mixer, he'll ask the sound mixer to bill him instead of the network. This is why I can never get into ENG shoots as often as I'd like. The DP is in the middle of my negotiations to get on payroll with the network. He would like to add me on as part of his ENG package. And it allows the DP to take a chunk out of what is meant to go towards the sound budget off the record. When I first started and barked up the wrong trees for true opportunities, I was a sucker for these jobs until more experienced sound mixers told me to stop doing that crap.

I still get these calls from time to time and say no. The DP will offer $300 to $400. But at places like ABC or NBC that deals with unions regarding freelance work, a sound mixer should be able to get atleast above $450 for 10 hours on the books.

OK. Opinions please!

[Jack Norflus]

If it is a network union job the labor needs to be billed with a time sheet and paid through payroll. I've been doing work for all three of the major networks for around 20 years now and its standard operating procedure. So I can't imagine how the DP is able to bill for your labor.

I know certain DP's who will bill gear for you on their invoice and then they pay you - but even then the gear rates are already set by the networks.

Given that the networks also have "news production" departments that are often non union and there is one rate for crew and gear which is usually bill by the DP.

[Jose]

But that's the thing. You keep to the network protocol. Does the network call you direct mostly as opposed to a DP?

For the sake of conversation, on an ESPN gig (let's say Sal Paolantonio with breaking news coverage out of Giants Stadium), wouldn't that be a NABET unon gig? It is ABC. I've had a call giving me those details from a DP with the sound mixer rate set at $350 on the phone. I think I am exposed to these calls, because I'm in all kind of directories and listed as nonunion here in Jersey.

[ProSound]

I am not 100 percent sure ESPN is union. If I work for ABC NBC CBS its via timecard and you get whatever the union rate is. It is on non union gigs the Camera man likes to negotiate for you and unfortunately many Camera ops don't value your services as much as they should and feel that $300/10 or $400/12 is a fair day rate for labor. Due to this I don't have a regular camera man I work with anymore the other thing that happens as well is the camera man will invest in a sound package and expect you to operate it so he can get all the equipment rental I never do this as usually there package is sub par or set up terrible. As an example someone I use to work with invested in a 552 4 new Lectros and a Zaxcom Camera link even though I already own it then he put it all in a Petrol 3 bag and packed the bag with every sound thing he could ever need and expected me to wear it all even if we were only doing a simple 1 wire eng gig or just going to do some simple sit down interviews. So he stopped hiring me and just trained someone in basic audio and now happily pays someone $300/12 to operate his gear and do his bidding. When he does have to call me for more complicated I know he never feels I am worth the $400-450/10 I charge and whatever the gear is.

I often wonder why camera men are like this you would think they would want the best person for the job however they usually just want to make the most money.

[Michael McQueen]

another problem i find working with DP's is that they want to provide the sound gear, thus leaving me with using questionable gear and less money. i'm not in a large market so if i say no to those gigs then i don't work, so its pretty tough on my part. there are a few DP's i don't mind doing this for as i know their gigs are usually really easy. but some of them i'm very hesitant. one of which "booked" me for 3 days with an ABC shoot. 8 hours before possible call time we still don't even know if we are shooting, and ABC doesn't do a kill fee, or so i was told. ended up passing on that gig and had fun riding my bike for 2 days instead of worry about that gig happening.

[Jack Norflus]

But that's the thing. You keep to the network protocol. Does the network call you direct mostly as opposed to a DP?

For the sake of conversation, on an ESPN gig (let's say Sal Paolantonio with breaking news coverage out of Giants Stadium), wouldn't that be a NABET unon gig? It is ABC. I've had a call giving me those details from a DP with the sound mixer rate set at $350 on the phone. I think I am exposed to these calls, because I'm in all kind of directories and listed as nonunion here in Jersey.

General network protocol is the unit manager hires the DP who will then hire a sound person (and in some cases a second and third crew). I've been working for the networks for quite some time and even being well entrenched there I get a call directly from the unit manager perhaps only 5 or 6 times a year.

As for ESPN, although not recently, I've done a fair amount of work for them through the years. For all ESPN work - I was hired directly through the DP. And even though ESPN is owned by Disney/ABC, and there content will air on ABC, it is a non-union shop. The DP will set there own rate with ESPN and essentially pay the sound person as they see fit. For what its worth ESPN rates are on the lower side to start with (with the exception or some of there higher end productions). That is one of the main reasons why my work there has fallen off in the recent years.

Just out of curiosity Who is the DP that is calling you for ESPN?

Jack

[Jose]

Jack, for confidentiality I will send you the name of the person emailwise. I will look his name up when I get home. Actually a few others as well.

[Boomboom]

Do you know if any DPs take a "cut" out of the process ?

Sounds weird to me that a DP would hire instead of production (with, that being said, the DP sure has his word to say since he'll be dealing with you regarding shots/shadows).

That much works this way here up north in Canada; prod hires the director who chooses the DP who in return refers the prod to a sound person/ list of sound persons (and sometimes not).

[Jack Norflus]

I often wonder why camera men are like this you would think they would want the best person for the job however they usually just want to make the most money.

Up here in NY there are camera men who own their own sound gear - and cameramen who have no intention of ever even owning an XLR cable. I usually work for the later. But some of the guys with a sound package will hire sound people with their own sound gear and some just wouldn't. And it is because of the money.

But more often than not when you hear about shoots that had "sound issues" I later find out that it was done by someone hired to work with a cameraman crappy sound package.

I know of a shooter who was blacklisted at NBC because there was often audio issues on his shoots. By the way he was one of the operates who owned a FP-32A, a ME-80 and some VHF lectros and would only hire sound people that would work his gear.

Jack

[Jon Gilbert]

When I was a bit greener than I am now, many years ago, it was fairly common for cameramen to hire sound, and bill on their behalf, of course they made sure it was worth their while to do so......

These days that is rarely the case (for me at least) If a cameraman suggests it, I politely refuse the offer and tell him I'm happier billing production direct, I've never lost a job because of this.

One more thing, if they're doing ENG, they're not DPs, they're cameramen!

[Matt Mayer]

In my world, I am called by the shooter (DP is a little too high and mighty for these guys! :-) ) about 50% of the time, Production Coord 30% of the time and Producer directly 20%

There usually isn't any negotiations involved. They have a gig, they want me on it, they know my rates, done.

About the only thing that I do that is union and time card is any network news (ABC, CBS or NBC) and CBS Sports. ABC Sports is pretty much done and NBC Sports is now all invoice and no timecard -- at least for the clients we work with. Have no idea how they got away with that.

[ProSound]

Do you know if any DPs take a "cut" out of the process ?

If the Camera guy refuses to let you talk to client in advance usually they are marking you up which I feel is unfair since there rate and equipment rental is so much more

[Jon Gilbert]

In my world, I am called by the shooter (DP is a little too high and mighty for these guys! :-) ) about 50% of the time, Production Coord 30% of the time and Producer directly 20%

There usually isn't any negotiations involved. They have a gig, they want me on it, they know my rates, done.

Similar ratio to me here in the UK, cameramen still call me, but I bill production direct.

[studiomprd]

"NBC Sports is now all invoice and no timecard -- at least for the clients we work with. "

in this case you are not working for NBC Sports, you are working with your client, who has a contract with NBC Sports.

As for the rest of this discussion: "IT DEPENDS".

Over the years I have experienced .these variations, and even variations of the variations. They are all valid.

There are lots of reasons, and lots of circumstances; all valid!

Over many years, I have often worked frequently with camera package Owner-Operators (O-O's) some of whom invoiced the client and then (reliably and promptly) paid me. As they got 1099 forms that included the $ they paid me, it actually cost them more than what they gave me, including the taxes! The good working relationships and the quantity of work we did together more than made up for any of the financial implications being discussed here...

[Matt Mayer]

"NBC Sports is now all invoice and no timecard -- at least for the clients we work with. "

in this case you are not working for NBC Sports, you are working with your client, who has a contract with NBC Sports.

Nope, I meant departments within NBC Sports - Olympics, Hockey, Etc.

All the jobs are invoiced (and then paid in 90 days, unless, of course, you pre-date the invoice... goofy)to NBC Sports and paid from 30 Rock.

Like I said, I have no idea how they made this all work, given the NABET contract.

[Jose]

This is pretty much why I find myself working in docs and reality more than anything (not a bad thing). 80% of the calls are from production managers, and the other 20 from fellow sound mixers who need me to dayplay. But then the sound mixers put me in contact with the PM. And the talk about rate and gear is fast and easy. And they prompt me over all the paperwork for me to get going on their payroll system.

I don't get this phone tag when it comes to network news productions. I get the shooter instead (I stand corrected from referring to them as DPs for this genre of work). And when they tell me the budget for sound and then I tell them my rate plus gear, they hang up and look elsewhere. It's frustrating, because I'd like to take advantage of ENG work on weeks (and sometimes a month or so) where I am not commited to long term projects. Yet these certain shooters I've had contact with on the phone are the ones that give out the ENG sound jobs.

@Matt: I've had those shoots where I invoiced ESPN. And they literally take anywhere between 45 to 90 days for the paycheck. Which can be a pain.

BTW, I am not painting all camera ops with a broad brush. There are shooters that do call me with fair pay. It's just that they are in the minority. I get alot more camera guys offering very little for the job. My complaints are along the same lines as Whitney.

[studiomprd]

" I don't get this phone tag when it comes to network news productions. I get the shooter instead (I stand corrected from referring to them as DPs for this genre of work). And when they tell me the budget for sound "

Lets review: The major Networks (ABC, CBS, NBC) are union, and the rates are set for labor and kit (low for sound!). FOX and CNN are mostly non-union, but their rates are pretty consistent, and they payroll it! Kit rates are low, too.These situations apply to many of the major news magazines and network / major cable network chat shows. I'd say that there are a lot of 'the rest of the shows' out there that pay pretty low, and also a bunch that hire a shooter-sound team as a package, -and those seem to be the ones you are referring to. Remember there are also a lot of shows that hire only a shooter... and that is another reason the O-O's acquire their own sound packages...

[Matt Mayer]

I don't get this phone tag when it comes to network news productions. I get the shooter instead (I stand corrected from referring to them as DPs for this genre of work). And when they tell me the budget for sound and then I tell them my rate plus gear, they hang up and look elsewhere.

Sounds fishy to me since there is no "budget" just Union Contract dictated rates. IIRC, CBS is somewhere in the neighborhood of $430-440 for 8, NBC and ABC are around $350 for 8. The gear money is CRAP and they expect you to bring way too much audio gear...

Do the shooters ask if you are union?

[studiomprd]

" The gear money is CRAP "

I think we have all agreed on this for years, decades even! But the rates and fringe's) are darn good, so we deal with it.

The shooters are required to offer a lot of gear, too, and their camcorders, etc. turn over more rapidly than their leases! If they also have one-person-band clients, too, then they need a sound package, too, and thus some of them want us to use their gear. I've had several shooter partners who had their own sound gear for those OPB gigs, but had me bring my own kit (and get the $$) when I work with them.

lots of variations.

[Jose]

@Senator. Thanks for the breakdown. FOX News is definitely nonunion.

However, I've had calls where the shooter had CNBC as clients where a journalist was trying to complete a business report. The offering rate from the shooter for that was $300 for 10 hours. And the 9th and 10th hour were not at OT rate. And CNBC I believe is Union.

I'm just surprised that nobody gets these crazy calls as much as I do. Maybe I should take my name down from a couple directories. I don't know.

@Matt: No they never ask me if I'm union. All that will change though. I worked a total of 19 days with ABC at NABET rates and will exceed my limit of 20 where NABET makes it mandatory to join them should I continue to freelance for ABC. Here in New York that is.

[studiomprd]

" FOX News is definitely nonunion. "

Yes, and CNN is largely non-union, though they have a few scattered, local contracts

" should I continue to freelance for ABC. Here in New York that is. "

that would be anywhere in the USA or if they send you elsewhere.

" And CNBC I believe is Union. "

and I believe one of the "games" they play is to contract with a freelancer (Freelance Producer) to produceand provide a "story package" for a fee, thus the producer is an IC who must hire and pay the expenses, including crew and equipment. As I said: variations of the variations!

" Maybe I should take my name down from a couple directories. "

Well, OK, don't you think it is better to get calls, even if you decide to turn them down, than to not get the calls??

[Jose]

Hey Senator,

Thanks for the info. The freelance producer hired as contractor and then hiring crew does explain it.

And yes I wil keep my name in the directories no matter how disappointing the calls.

[syncsound]

I've worked for HGTV on several shows and they expect the DP to hire out the mixer, all invoice. Eventually I told the DP (good friend, upstanding guy) that I couldn't do the rates they offered anymore, and he understood. They were paying the same rates since 2005, which was $400/12, plus $150 kit, and I was expected to "grip" as well. Made my bones doing those shows, but it was time to move on.

[ProSound]

Recently I have had alot more people offering the standard low ball rate of $350/10 and $150 for gear I politely tell them that is what I got paid when I starting working professional jobs back in 2001-2002 and push for more. Recently a fellow mixer had a gig that the email said " After finishing the interviews you will be expected to become a member the the camera crew acting as a utility." I don't mind helping out but recently I have been asked to do more than I am comfortable with like build a 20x20 frame and fly it on 2 combo stands with a PA heling. I don't mind setting up some lights for a interview but you have to know when to say when.

[AudioNinja]

I usually dont deal with the Owner Operator Camera person who is trying to hire me under his deal with the client, but it depends. If I know the guy and he pays me quick, im all for it. There is a local shooter here in LA named Roy K, dude...everytime he calls me, its super low ball money, he has audio gear he wants me to use, AND he always says its NET 60!!!! , He is a nice person, and I have done some shoots with him, but I usually Almost ALWAYS, say NO. On the other hand, I know shooters that do really high end BTS shoots on commercials and high fashion shoots, I let them negotiate away...They get me 850/day including gear all the time, the shoots are always super high quality with great crafty etc, and the BTS work is super easy...I guess it depends on the situation.