Sound Devices mixers and water/humidty

[Rachel Cameron]

Hi guys,

I'm new and have a lot to learn. I've a job offer on the high seas for four days. I'm bit nervous: The client wants me to rent a SD 442/744T kit, slave synch four ES-1s to my time of day code master.

My problem- I'm gun shy about the SD mixers and water. I've just spent 10 weeks running in all kinds of weather with [that production's] 302 and was miffed to find that ANY little water or drop of rain on the faceplate, sent the 302 into a tizzy, losing the settings (and me going to the 'penalty box' and waiting until it 'felt' better), and so forth.

Is this an issue with SD mixers?

I've worked around the eastern waters, from Bahamas to Maine for ten years with my FP and it's taken plenty of mistings, water splashes, and work around and in the rain. I typically do much smaller run and gun doc stuff using my FP33, which I've loved.

Will I have problems with the 442 like that if I get a splash or a drop on the face of the 442? Is this an issue? Or even humidity? This job is in the often troubled (hurricaney) Florida Straights.

Does anyone have the same experiences?

By the way..I really look up to you all, and feel privileged to be here. This is such an awswome place to be (thanks Jeff, you're a god), and I hope one day I can be a soundgirl of the calibur that most of the guys here are, which is a monumental aspiration for me. I'm constantly stunned and amazed by the rigs and carts, and jobs I see you all using and doing.

Cheers and please be easy on me...

Rachel

[Mark LeBlanc]

I've had my 788t/CL8 on boats with no issues. Make sure your bag has a clear cover to keep the stray splash off the face. I live in the southern part of Louisiana and brother it's extremely hot and humid right now! Thankfully my next show starting next week is mostly interiors!!

Good luck

Mark L

[jason porter]

Hi Rachel,

I have used my 302 on a series called Mighty Ships for 3 seasons, no water issues at all (been on submarines, in huge show squalls in the north Atlantic, arctic freighters, cruise ships in the Bahamas etc). Of course, a good rain cover helps!

[aristotle_kumpis]

I have a 552, which has been through a lot of different environments. It's been in the rain, the bayou, heat, etc. And it's never failed on me. But I think SD put an extra gasket behind the faceplate that helps keep out moisture. I don't think the 442 has this. You should look into the 552 instead of the 442. It can't be that much more to rent.

[John Blankenship]

...Cheers and please be easy on me...

Welcome. Glad to have you here. We have a few other ladies-gals-women (please pick the term you like most) here and it's good you're lowering the gender imbalance a bit.

Go easy on you? Nope. You're one of the gang now. Enjoy.

Years ago I used an FP33 in consort with an SD MixPre as the front end. The Shure has a number of good features and is reasonably flexible. Where I found it lacking is 1. the mic pre and 2. system headroom. Using the MixPre as the front end solved the first concern and I re-calibrated the circuits for greater headroom. It worked really well in that configuration.

When I work over the shoulder, my current bag rig normally contains an SD 302 which I have found to be quite reliable. I'm careful about water getting into my gear, but having worked in areas of humidity and even in the rain (with rain cover, of course) I'd say SD products are not particularly susceptible to humidity. I did just send it to Wisconsin for R&R, largely because of some flaky LEDs (which I think humidity did affect), but nothing that kept it from performing its main task.

[johngooch]

I have a 552, which has been through a lot of different environments. It's been in the rain, the bayou, heat, etc. And it's never failed on me. But I think SD put an extra gasket behind the faceplate that helps keep out moisture. I don't think the 442 has this. You should look into the 552 instead of the 442. It can't be that much more to rent.

I concur, the 552 is more water resistant than the 442.

Another note, after the first generation of the 442s SD incorporated a humidity resistant coating,I would make sure your unit has this coating. When mine was upgraded, they put a sticker on it indicating version number and humidity protection coating. In an intense downpour, my 442 failed and did not come back for day or so. I opened it up, let it dry it and it was as good as new. This was not a gentle misting, this was a downpour, any mixer could have failed.

Really invest in good spray protection. I like the PERC from petrol. There are some european bag manufacturers that have really large clear protective covers that protect the face of the recorder/mixer- kortwich--- KT systems. Maybe some other users of these bags can chime in...

Bring backup gear and keep it in water tight storage.

I think only Cantar boasts real water resistance.

good luck,

john.

[studiomprd]

Water and electronics is sometimes an issue, and salt water (sea-water) and electronics is always an issue. At sea, the best possible splash and spray protection, along with diligent attention to keeping the gear as protected as possible, and paying careful attention to keeping it clean and dry are essential. As a professional, backup is also a requirement.

"Is this an issue with SD mixers? "

What did SD tell you when you contacted them about your issues??

As working professionals, we are always concerned with the ruggedness and reliability of the equipment we use, which is as it should be...

When it comes to the popularly accepted professional tools (like SD mixers), you can pretty well expect them to perform well under pressure and stress in our gigs, or they would not have become the best sellers that they are. As crap happens, problems, bad experiences, with gear need to be appropriately addressed and resolved.

" found it lacking is 1. the mic pre and 2. system headroom "

Perhaps if you feel more comfortable with another piece of equipment, you should carefully consider using it, as long as it meets your needs; although the FP-33 is rugged, reliable, and produces acceptable and professional results daily in hundreds of situations, it isn't particularly well sealed against water and moisture.

[RPSharman]

Perhaps you got a bad 302. It can happen. SD mixers are tops. I wouldn't worry about it. But if the job is at sea, then having a back-up of some kind should be insisted upon. Be sure the 744T has the little plastic screen cover. They can be purchased separately if it's not on the machine.

As others have said, it is best to keep the moisture out as best you can. Sometimes I'll just lay a small towel over the mixer to catch the direct spray or rain, etc.

Someone posted some time ago something that looks like an old cigarette case which absorbs moisture. From Pelican, maybe? This can go in the bag with the gear.

Good luck, and have fun.

Robert

[Soundwil]

Hi,

I would steer clear of the 442 when put in such a wet situation. In 12 years of using first a Filmtech (uk), then the 442 and now a 552, the 442 was the only one to let me down - twice - in wet weather. One time I had the Petrol PERC cover (bib) on but if I had to make any fader adjustments (which is inevitable) the water on my fingers would collect on the faceplate and eventually some part of the electronics would give up until it dried out hours later. In fact it was this occasion that prompted me to upgrade to the 552.

That's my 2 pence worth and my first post on here - hi all.

Wil

[studiomprd]

" case which absorbs moisture. "

desiccant packs, which work best inside sealed cases.

or:

http://www.atsko.com.../waterproofing/

http://www.atsko.com...rd-extreme.html

http://www.atsko.com...ater-guard.html

Edited July 9, 2011 by studiomprd

[JFASound]

Rachel,

I've been working on a documentary about the ocean for about the past year. I've been recording to a 788T/SSD and have yet to have problems and I've been unexpectedly drenched to the bone a number of times.

Here's a few other things that have helped:

-Bring a rain cover like the one Petrol makes. I use the smaller, non-poncho one because it keeps me cool and still covers gear.

-Bring rubbing alcohol or distilled water aboard. You're gonna want to wipe down gear at the end of every day.

-Brush your softie/windjammer every day. The salt spray will cause it to matte up terribly.

-Bring dry bags and unlubricated condoms for transmitters.

-Protect the connection from your boom to your coiled cable. This tends to get wet and the salt water eats away at the wiring.

Hope this helps and smooth sailing,

Jesse

www.jfasound.com

[DjGo]

I got the 442 as soon as it got out on the market (2002 is my guestimation).. in the beginning I had different kinds of troubles with this mixer in bad weather.. it never completely failed on me, but it was quite annoying in the heat of shooting.. The mixer returned several times to the factory and sounddevices sealed some components (I never cared to ask which) with a sillicone sleeve to protect it from rain drops etc. The 442 never failed on me again after that.. it has been in very bad weather, but I always carry the Petrol 'Apron' to prevent any waterdamage when working out of the bag in bad weather (or at sea for that matter).. The 442 has been discontinued but SD has been manufacturing 442s with this silicon seal inside.. don't know from which serialno. on they implemented this.

[Richard Nault]

I got the 442 as soon as it got out on the market (2002 is my guestimation).. in the beginning I had different kinds of troubles with this mixer in bad weather.. it never completely failed on me, but it was quite annoying in the heat of shooting.. The mixer returned several times to the factory and sounddevices sealed some components (I never cared to ask which) with a sillicone sleeve to protect it from rain drops etc. The 442 never failed on me again after that.. it has been in very bad weather, but I always carry the Petrol 'Apron' to prevent any waterdamage when working out of the bag in bad weather (or at sea for that matter).. The 442 has been discontinued but SD has been manufacturing 442s with this silicon seal inside.. don't know from which serialno. on they implemented this.

I, too, had one of the first 442 mixers that came out and started having problems with it while on a trip to the Arctic. A very, very dry location, but our only shelter was a small shack in which all of our meals were cooked, so a very humid environment, and no way to dry the gear out.

My unit was sent back to Sound Devices and they conformal coated what I was told was 'the main board', a treatment that subsequently made mixers left the factory with. That unit was problem free for a year or two until I went to Borneo for a doc shoot. By that time I was carrying a 302 mixer as a backup, and it was so humid that I ended up having to switch between the two - trying to dry one mixer out while using the other. My system worked well on that trip until 442 suffered a near total immersion in a stream I was wading through trying to find a shortcut around a log footbridge.

That was the end of that 442, so the next one was a newer model that left the factory with the new sealing treatment, and never had any issues with humidity again.

All that said, you'll probably be fine with a 442...but in extreme environments, be sure to have a backup. You never know what can happen with weather etc. Have a small waterproof 'run bag' with you and have some rain gear for you and the gear at the ready.

Also, the shoot is never as close to the car/hotel/camp as the fixer/director/guide will have you believe, so always bring rain gear etc, with you rather than leave it back at camp/hotel/car.

Now own a 552 as well, and I remember reading about how the knobs felt different from the 442's because of gaskets below them, so maybe a more weatherproof option?

Best of luck on your project!

Rich

[Freeheel]

I'll add my number to those who have had issues with 442 and moisture. One drop in the wrong place caused the trimpots to open up wide. A bit of snow got under my raincover and melted on the face. Suddenly the channel I was using started blaring and I realized that the trim was no longer attenuating audio. I tried to adjust it using the fader but the signal was totally overloading the front end.

Had to throw the wireless rx onto the camera to finish the shoot. The 442 spent that evening under a hair dryer and I never had another problem with it. After this event though, I always made sure I had good protection over top of it during rainy shoots.

Cheers

Brent C

[Rachel Cameron]

Thanks for the great replies and welcomes. This is hugely helpful~

 

Very interesting about the 442 being not water resistant as the 522. I guess it sorta begs the question: Is the 302 (or some early models?) not even as resistant as the 442?

 

And to just recap the story: I was using the production's 302 (not mine ~ I never used a 302 before, either), which was a bit older looking and had been on many seasons of this program, I'm sure. A few drops of rain made it completely go dark for...ehh..well, the remainder of the evening, it was about ten jobs ago. I'm faced with another job ~ a rental 442 on the open sea. My (own) FP33 has never been that sensitive. I've had it on speeding boats and in all kinds of fog, bogs, humid marshes, storms, and swampy areas..I'll bring it as a back up.

 

so...when I looked down at this fritzing 302 with my flashlight (it was dark and rainy out), there was only, like...about five tiny drops on the face. It wasn't soaked or doused or even splashed...I was actually shocked that such a seemingly little amount would do such a thing. I was using a (worn) Petrol Bag and sort of shielding it with my body but the flap was not really over it....

 

So thanks for the insights regarding the gaskets, silicone coatings, and version numbers. I can surmise it was an older 302 with no real silicone coating, humidity protection or face gasket, and it took a direct hit from a droplet.

 

The production DID chew on me for letting that happen (I guess they were aware of this tendency), as well as the another sound person on the job who sternly warned me never to let water get on these. Live and learn. Made me a little shy to run out and upgrade to a 302, though.

 

I DID enjoy using the mixer though. I'd love to have a well protected 442 or better. Someday.

 

 

 

What did SD tell you when you contacted them about your issues??

 

 

I never contacted SD. I didn't want to get into more trouble. I just made sure to never let it happen again on the rest of the tour. Ugh..anyway, thanks for the great remarks, comments, suggestions and stories, too.

 

Rachel

[studiomprd]

" I didn't want to get into more trouble. "

That makes absolutely no sense (to me)...

Sound Devices would be nothing but helpful!

[Jim Feeley]

Very interesting about the 422 being not water resistant as the 522. I guess it sorta begs the question: Is the 302 (or some early models?) not even as resistant as the 422?

The 302 was released three-ish years after the 422, iirc. I haven't had issues with my early-model 302 in weeks of heavy rain, humidity, and abuse. But that's just a bunch of anecdotal experience. Clearly YMHV. As mentioned here, the 552 front panel is gasketed.

Drop a note to Sound Devices. Responsive, helpful people:

http://www.sounddevices.com/support/

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing...

[ProSound]

I never contacted SD. I didn't want to get into more trouble. I just made sure to never let it happen again on the rest of the tour. Ugh..anyway, thanks for the great remarks, comments, suggestions and stories, too.

Rachel

I have had my 302 since they first came out and I have never had a moisture issue with it using it on boats and in FL and GA two very humid places. But like any gear if it has been abused it may fail. Sounds like the company didn't want to take responsibility for not keeping the sound gear serviced. If it was having issues you should have insisted they send it in for repair. This is the reason I NEVER use production company gear at all. Because when it fails they blame you

[Eric Toline]

" I didn't want to get into more trouble. "

That makes absolutely no sense (to me)...

Sound Devices would be nothing but helpful!

Not her job to call SD as it wasn't her gear. Seems the company didn't want to do it either even though it was their gear and they were aware of the issue.

Eric

[studiomprd]

Not her job to call SD as it wasn't her gear. Seems the company didn't want to do it either even though it was their gear and they were aware of the issue.

Eric

If she had questions, or needed information and suggestions, which she obviously did, she could have, and I believe should have called SD for guidance, advice, etc. Of course it is not her job to send it in for repairs, if that is what is needed...

If I am going to use a client's gear, I often have mine along as backup; In case of trouble, it is available for rental...

[pindrop]

I'm very careful about not getting any drops of water running down inside my 442 having had it go haywire twice when it was only a light shower, but that care was not enough, as when I was working on a film inside a prison and it was very time consuming getting equipment through security each day, I left my equipment in a small room which looked fine but turned out to have a damp wall causing high humidity and that was enough to disable mic. input one for three hours before it dried out.

442 and water do not mix!

[Rachel Cameron]

" I didn't want to get into more trouble. "

That makes absolutely no sense (to me)...

Sound Devices would be nothing but helpful!

Oh..true. And, just to clarify, I meant about rocking the boat on the production, not with SD. I could have phoned SD about it, and asked, but I learned what I needed to know with that mixer: Just don't get water into it or near it. It was a ten week shoot, and for the other 7 weeks..I just didn't let water get near the faceplate. It was easy, once I knew. And there was still more rain during the following seven weeks. It was a fantastic wad of money (and experience) for the job.

I could have phoned the production manager in L.A. to send me another mixer, but that would make it look like I wasn't listening to this local tough guy line producer(?), and these were the most militant people I've ever worked for. This guy was mean as a snake and actually sought out the 'troublemakers', lol. The program has completed 22 seasons, by that point, so "Mr. Snake" was the only real stress on that job, (haha). When he left town in week four, I was okay. Well..we ALL were. So I just went with the "don't rock the boat" credo. It worked for me and I got through with flying colors. I'll probably get called back.

But no..don't get me wrong. studiompd, . If I have a real ongoing issue, I usually call the maker or SOMEone for advice. And of course, if it continued to have the problems after being way more careful, I would have phoned SD, and tried not to let it get back to the production, unless SD said: Hey, that 302 has an issue, send it in. THEN I'd happily let the production know it had issues.

And I'm not trying to down SD, I love their gear. It was just one incident, and I wondered if that was common, that's all.

Thanks!!

Rachel

[David Waelder]

I have an SD 442 mixer so I followed this discussion with interest. I rarely use it but I would like to keep it in good operational shape for those occasions when I might need it. I contacted Sound Devices to learn if my unit fell before or after the improved water resistance point. (I'm expecting a gold star from Mike Michaels.)

Stephen Fichter in Tech Support at Sound Devices told me that they began applying a conformal coating to the circuit boards beginning with PCB revision 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_coating

He told me:

"After PCB revision 5 we started conformal coating the boards, which does help protect from light water splashes but that was not its intended purpose. Any time we get a unit in we will conformal coat the boards to help the circuitry remain reliable and clean in prolonged use in humid environments. Conformal coating will not protect from submersion, major splashes, or even minor splashes that get into the various different ports. Any time the units get wet, drying it out and giving it proper time to dry before use again is the best way to avoid water damage."

The serial number can help determine if a particular unit has the coating or not. Per Mr. Fichter:

"The first 2 characters are the model, the second 2 characters signify what rev the board is, the third 2 numbers represent the year,..."

My serial number is: 030604307000

The "03" apparently indicates a 442 mixer, the "06" means that it is PCB revision 6 and the "04" indicates manufacture in 2004. Any 442 with 06 or higher in the second two digits of the serial number will have the conformal coating. Mr. Fichter was uncertain exactly when the 05 board began to be made but guesses that it was either late 2003 or early 2004. I'm also a little unclear as to whether the change to using conformal coating occurred with the very first 05 board or sometime during that run.

And, of course, he states that any unit returned for service is routinely updated with the coating.

He also confirms that the 552 is more robustly sealed against water intrusion with gaskets on the fader knobs and other measures. But any 442 mixer with board revision 06 or later will be as water resistant as any other 442.

Hope that helps.

David