Zack Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I'm just curious to hear from other members as to how they would handle providing sound to camera on a basic doc or corporate shoot that has a lot of movement. I usually default to using the return cable for these things, but sometimes it just seems to be a massive burden having to baby sit people from tripping on it (including the camera op) and taking away my attention to what I'm supposed to be doing. If you know you're going to be on a shoot that will require more movement, dodging people, and other obstacles would you just opt for having set up a wireless hop regardless of rate or what? Also, are people usually running double system when running a hop for insurance of a drop out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I never run a hop without a back up, the machine is in my bag anyway, it seems to be asking for trouble to not turn it on and press record..... As for the cable or hop dilemma, if there's any movement at all, I push for a hop, as you say, baby sitting people who should know better is no fun. An increasing number of camera ops I work with have a Lectro SR receiver in the back of their camera anyway, so it makes everything that bit easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Mega Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I always go wireless on these types of shoots. I know you asked about basic doc or corporate but anything with alot of movement and also alot of people everywhere, tight spaces etc warrants a wireless hop. Its also a safety issue. It also allows me to move around freely to capture better sound on the boom and the cam op can move around freely too. You ask about using it regardless of rate? Explaining the reasons above will guarantee payment for your hop. I've never had the rate for the hop declined. Oh, and yes back up the hop if you so desire but theres no need to hand it over unless its required. Cheers Peter Mega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Anytime the camera will be moving I opt for the hop. I hate having to mind the cable, and I hate to be forced to boom from where the camera operator wants to be to get his shot. It really affects my ability to work. More often than not I will get paid for the hop - but there has been plenty of times I have not as well. When I don't get paid I look at it as the cost of doing business - because it gives me the ability to do my job correctly. As for a back-up I generally only back-up interviews. I will usually not back up b-roll. I have been using the Zaxcom QRX with IFB option for my hop and its performance has been rock solid. The IFB return is a great feature to give me confidence that the audio is getting to the camera. So I hope I am not leading myself to a sense of false security but I feel very comfortable with the QRX's performance to not run a back-up most of the time. Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Anytime the camera will be moving I opt for the hop. I hate having to mind the cable, and I hate to be forced to boom from where the camera operator wants to be to get his shot. It really affects my ability to work. More often than not I will get paid for the hop - but there has been plenty of times I have not as well. When I don't get paid I look at it as the cost of doing business - because it gives me the ability to do my job correctly. I agree and always run wireless when moving. Only time I cable is interviews or if the camera is on a tripod that is it. I do alot of studio shoots and have hundreds of feet of break away cable extension so I cable on these shoots as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 How much extra do you guys ask to go wireless hop? And what type of small backup recorder do you use? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Totally agree with all the statements above.. for me the idea that it lets you get the boom exactly where it needs to be is one of the greatest selling points for wireless hops. Safety is also a concern. For cost, I treat it as two additional wireless mics, which is basically what it is, even if it's a Zaxcom system. Also, most clients I work with assume that you will be bringing 'hops' and that any equipment quote you give includes them. That said, I do have a hard time getting any more than a "two-day-week" week out of anyone when it comes to kit rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 If the production isn't paying for the hops I don't break them out. However, nearly all the shoots I'm on ask for/require wireless hops but they are all willing to pay for it. I am also finding it harder and harder to get more than a two day week out of gear rental. What I want to tell line producers is "sure, I am more than happy to do only a two day week on the rental. What gear would you like to use the rest of the week?" I charge two additional wireless channels for the hops. If they don't want to pay for it I don't use them, especially after explaining how the audio will be better because of boon position, safety, etc. I don't want the wear and tear on the gear if I'm not recouping the cost of purchasing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 How much extra do you guys ask to go wireless hop? And what type of small backup recorder do you use? Thanks! I bill as if I am billing for two extra wireless - even though I use the Zaxcom QRX. Sometimes clients will expect a hop, or if I know I will be using one, I will factor that into the quote for the package. I will mention that the price includes a two channel wireless camera hop. They are always OK with that, and there is never a hassle at the end of the job. As for a back-up I use the Zaxcom TRX900 with record feature as my camera send - so a TC stamped back-up is super easy. No additional gear or cabling is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 How much extra do you guys ask to go wireless hop? And what type of small backup recorder do you use? Thanks! - I 'try' to charge the same as if it were for another person(s). - For a small bag 302 kit, I'll use a 620 or H2. ( tape-out > line-in ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 One thing I've been doing over the past couple of years is to forget the hop, if I'm recording multiple tracks onto my 744T, there seems little point sending a two track mix to the camera, so instead, I stick a decent mic on the camera, giving the editor another track to use, it's come in very handy sometimes on the kind of docs I work on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 It depends... If they have the budget, Ill do hops and record in the bag. If they dont have the budget, Im perfectly happy to hardline to the camera. My bag is lighter without the hops and/or recorder and I dont mind dancing with the ops. Many of us have and still do this on some reality shows, fashion week(what a pig f***), corporate events, etc If they want the hops only, I make a disclaimer and inform them of the potential issues(not being able to monitor camera, rf hits, etc. I also explain that no matter how conscientious the cam op is, they are focused on picture and its easy for audio mistakes to happen like bumped pots, camera mic switched on, getting only 1 channel etc). I push for a recorder in the bag. What I never do is "give it away". I will NOT put $5000 worth of wireless or a $4000 recorder or both on the shoot for free. Even if it makes my life easier or will create a better product or to cover my ass. I covered myself with the disclaimer and warning of potential issues, IN WRITING. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 In my ongoing decrepitude, I decided that I was done cable dancing and basically don't offer that service except as a backup, or on stage shoots where not much is moving. I come from the Ancient Days of Film Docs and have always resented the behind-the-camera-water-skiing thing--I need to be able to go where I need to go to do my job and not rack myself out any more than I already am. If that makes the hop a present to myself then that's ok with me. I run the backup recorder all the time anyhow, even when cabled--a personal fetish I know but just chalk it off to being another Acquired Quirk of an Old Soundie. I also agree that being able to leave the camera mic on in addition to my tracks can be a great thing in editorial. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I'm with you all the way Phil, I can't understand why people leave things in the car when they could make the job so much easier, I might not tell the PM that I've used a hop, or a back up without invoicing them for it, then they'll expect it for free everytime, but if there's no money in the budget for it, but it'll make my life easier, then, I couldn't put it better than you, it's a present to myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 What I never do is "give it away". I will NOT put $5000 worth of wireless or a $4000 recorder or both on the shoot for free. Even if it makes my life easier or will create a better product or to cover my ass. I covered myself with the disclaimer and warning of potential issues, IN WRITING. It's not always about the money. I take everything on a case by case basis. I ask myself is this a client I want to work for again? If not being tethered to a camera will I be able to deliver a better product? Will this result in a call back from the client? Will this possibly result in a referral to additional clients by this client or by the camera operator? Is the labor / gear rate already a decent rate? Is this a client who has been good to me for years? If yes was answered to any one of the above then yes I will "give it away". My gear has always paid for itself, and in most cases several times over. So a few dollars lost for a hop rental or a free Comtek I find often makes up for itself in the long run. I've been using wireless camera hops for over 20 years now and I've never covered myself with a disclaimer - and I have never gotten a phone call regarding any audio issues. My advise is buy good reliable gear and be diligent about putting tape on the pots and if the camera man breaks away to do a b-roll shot make sure you are off camera mic - after all it is your job. Just my 2 cents Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I think the jobs where I have trouble getting a proper rate for the hop (same $ as 2 additional wireless mics) are when they already have budgeted a kit fee (being the somewhat standard for a bag mixer + boom + 2 wireless lavs). I'm talking about the basic ENG kit setup where they don't want IFB or anything extra. My Zaxcom hop xmitter has internal recording, so there is some safety involved by default. I'm not saying you should cave on rate, but if you already own the kit and know it will make YOUR work day significantly easier (safer?)... then it might be worth it. Sometimes a producer at a desk that does the booking doesn't really understand the situation in the field. It might also make the camera op really happy and lead to more work (they don't know what you are getting for the kit fees, they just know you have the kit). I don't know that I would even tell production that you used a wireless hop if they didn't pay for it, or they may think it's part of your standard kit for that standard rate. If it was a really crap rate that you took "instead of earning nothing at home", then I would probably not pull out the hop (but remind people you have one). You can also bring it along and follow the "if it powers up, it gets invoiced for" rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I'm a firm believer in working smart than hard, but I also don't like being taken advantage of not being compensated for the operation of additional (expensive) gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hey zack +1 on safety issues. If you and the camera are moving around in an unscripted way then OH&S really mandates the use of a link. Sure the cam op hates being cables too. Get in his ear and get him to talk to production too. +1 on not giving ANYTHING away for free. If you're providing a zax link or whatever charge for it; going rate here is $150 p/d. Don't throw things in for free as it erodes everyone else's financial return on money invested in their kit. I always run a backup when linking, more for my peace of mind than anything else. Just so IF there is ever a problem with the sound on camera I can provide a quick solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ontariosound Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Here in Canada it is very difficult to get a proper rental fee for extra gear. I am guilty of bringing my Stereoline for free at times, but it is for my own sanity. An angle that has worked for me as far as getting a rental out of it is to say that the Zax is for the benefit of the cameraperson, not me. They will get better shots, more coverage and it is safer. As usual, as soon as you mention that it will "help the cameraperson" suddenly it is in the budget ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted July 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 the Zax is for the benefit of the cameraperson, not me. They will get better shots, more coverage and it is safer. As usual, as soon as you mention that it will "help the cameraperson" suddenly it is in the budget ! I like this angle hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 I also like the angle that it will help the camera person get better shots. What I don't like is throwing stuff in for free. Yes, it may make my life or the camera ops life easier but it makes my life harder if that Zaxcom receiver gets damaged by the camera op today and I don't have it available for the client who is paying for it tomorrow. Also, why should the low budget production get the same gear package as the client who is paying full rate? If I have enough budget for a Toyota I don't expect to get a BMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 if that Zaxcom receiver gets damaged by the camera op I know its not the same - but I was once tethered to a camera and the operator kneeled down for a low angle shot and as he came up he stepped on the cable and completely ripped the cable out of the break-away connector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 I also have had camera ops step on my break away cable causing an expensive repair. L&D is part of the business, but that's why we have to charge properly for the equipment. When something breaks it isn't just the repair cost that we take on, its also the lost rental time from that piece of equipment for other jobs. If you rent a car and return it damaged the contract stipulates that you not only pay for the repair but also any lost rental days while the car is being repaired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Nault Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 What have people out there been charging for a D4 wireless hop? I could see producers getting a wee bit cringy at a 'per channel' charge for a 4 channel system. Cheers, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 " If not being tethered to a camera will I be able to deliver a better product? " close, but more relevant (especially considering the other two Q's) would be: will it make the shoot safer, more trouble free, and more efficient. and then you get the shooter to back you up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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