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Bartek

Sing-along dialog

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Hello,

How would you guys handle a scene where 3 actors in a moving car are soposed to sing along to a well known song?

I thaught of recording a reference trk during playback, as well as trying to do a version where the music is reletivley soft and finnaly a complete wild (with the actors recieving music via headphones), and letting post deal with the rest. Is there a better way of handeling this kind of situation??

as always your opinions are very appreciated.

Bartek

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Bartek,

a friend of mine did the same thing just last week. here was his setup and gear we rented for the shot.

SCENE:

4- actors in a hummer singing a song. mixed with dialogue. 

SOUND EQUIPMENT:

1-IPOD (song imported from post, his I POD)

1-M216 COMTEK TX

4-PHONAK INVISITY MICRO EAR (216)

1-MULTITRACK RECORDER (his choice -Deva)

4-LECTRO 411'S W/SANKENS

1-PR216 RCVR- (tuned to same ch. as microear)

1-LECTRO IFB TX

4- LECTRO RIA W/HEADSETS (dir. script, prod. & sound)

SETUP:

Deva in back with the 411's in a padded pick n pluck foam "bed" and the ifb lectro "sending" to follow van two blocks away.

4- lavs in there discreet ISO channels

1-pr-216 in another ch. in the deva

(post wanted the song from the ipod sent to a channel on the recorder,thats why the 1-pr 216 was used and put in to one of the inputs in the deva.)

the ipod was controlled by the actor in the back row. he had the ipod and M-216(mini to mini cable) in his lap

where he controlled the playback of the song. the actors each had there own micro ear piece and off they went. (the ear wigs are better used for music playback in the lower setting. the higher setting is for directors cueing.

if you cannot use a ipod. (by the way worked great, sounded terrific)  you can try the portable comtek m216 or the base sation (bst-25) ac only, so be sure to bring a ac-dc converter or a 12v pelican battery with a ac converter to power the tx. the portable tx you can typically get arounfd 100' of range and the bst, around 300' using the high gain antenna.  the new programmable invisity rf earwigs are very good, as far as reception and audio quality. ( they have 4 channels you can preset and use a remote control out in the field to changs ch.)

hope that helped a little.

cu soon rvd

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Hey Frank n all, the only thing I don't understand in the set up you describe, is where and how the mix track for dailies was achieved. I guess you could route them internally in the deva to a track for telecine. Maybe this is what your friend did. Sounds like they hit record and sent it down the road with actors in charge of playback and recorded it blind. If you get a chance, let us know. Thanks.

CrewC

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I did this w/ wireless cue aids recently, but the talent (young women in fairly skimpy summer clothes) couldn't wear neck-loops for the cue aids, so we wired the car with an induction loop and a battery powered amp.  Playback was off a CDR burned for the occasion w/ repeating loops.  The main challenge was to keep the lighting cables from "shorting" the RF loop by crossing it.  Car was a convertable--talent was wired--result worked quite well.

Philip Perkins

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Old skool,

your right!  they hit record on the deva and "rolled" down the street literally. my buddy said, he got to monitor pretty well, but they had to stay behind far as possible (looking thru front window for a master shot of all 4 actors and "seeing" the world behind) fo a few passes. they then played back the int.hard drive to check the audio before moving on or in for coverage, where then the ifb and setup did change.

also,

I forgot to mention the mix track for telecine that was routed to ch.1

btw,

are mixers sending 2 mixes to ch.1 and ch.2? I was recently told that a mixer sends only his mix to ch.1 now for telecine for the dailies mix. whats the deal old skool?

philip,

when I first started at lsc, we rented those 40 lb (seemed like 100) 200w qsc amps with 100' room loops w/junction boxes and ear wigs (1 backup per 2 wigs rented, they were a very hit and miss bunch of *** earwigs.) walkie talkies if used to close or flourescent bulbs or was it hmi's  alos used to drive those little earwigs batty. then by the time  I left, we rented only the rf earwigs by phonak and comtek bst's. (In the rental world, we call the amp & room loop setups -Nagra earwigs) Gary from Dyplex came to love me and Robert N. for helping "kick start" the demand for them. we did it out of frustration and desperation on the whole room loop setups. and lugging the amps and cables around.

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I forgot to mention the mix track for telecine that was routed to ch.1

btw,

are mixers sending 2 mixes to ch.1 and ch.2? I was recently told that a mixer sends only his mix to ch.1 now for telecine for the dailies mix. whats the deal old skool?

Almost exclusively my "mix" track is only one track and it is Track 1. This keeps everything very simple for all involved. The instruction to telecine, unless stated otherwise, is to transfer Track 1 only for picture dailies. I have never seen the need, at least in the work that I do, to deliver 2 different mixes to telecine (picture editorial). There have been a few times when the B Camera could be shooting something that is so different and unrelated to the A Camera and in those instances I have requested that some other track be transferred specifically for the B Camera.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Hey Frank, I was asked awhile back by telecine, (2 houses), for two tracks, cause thats how there rigs were set up for the dailies tapes. So 99% of the time I send in trk 1 n 2 with the same data. Sometimes like when doing playback and live recording, trk 1 voice, trk 2 music. As for the original question in this thread, I do it as RVD explained.

CrewC

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hey guys,

it seems that commercials want 2 mix tracks and features request 1 track.

the tv shows are different, some want 2 tracks others 1 mix track

thanks.

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hey guys,

it seems that commercials want 2 mix tracks and features request 1 track.

the tv shows are different, some want 2 tracks others 1 mix track

thanks.

I think it is pathetic that 2 tracks are requested often just so the telecine suite doesn't have to repatch their equipment. Telecine typically delivers to editorial a videotape with 2 tracks of audio (hey, it's "stereo"). So, what's the problem putting my one track to the two tracks on the videotape?

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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philip,

when I first started at lsc, we rented those 40 lb (seemed like 100) 200w qsc amps with 100' room loops w/junction boxes and ear wigs (1 backup per 2 wigs rented, they were a very hit and miss bunch of *** earwigs.) walkie talkies if used to close or flourescent bulbs or was it hmi's  alos used to drive those little earwigs batty. then by the time  I left, we rented only the rf earwigs by phonak and comtek bst's. (In the rental world, we call the amp & room loop setups -Nagra earwigs) Gary from Dyplex came to love me and Robert N. for helping "kick start" the demand for them. we did it out of frustration and desperation on the whole room loop setups. and lugging the amps and cables around.

Sorry your customers have had a hard time with room loops--they've worked great for me.  Last year I did some spots where we had to wire 3 kids on a metal raised stage in the middle of a crowded "big box" retail store--they had to sing to playback live and the shot started WAY too wide to boom and then came into full-head closeups (crane).  We ran a room loop around the lip of the stage (just 12/2 AC cable) and energized it with a 100/chan amp.  Worked very well--saved the kids from having to have TWO belt packs (Comtek + wireless TX--these were LITTLE kids) and neckloops.  I've also wired whole medium-sized sound stages (for singing and dancing numbers) and other sorts of dramatic sets this way--all to avoid loading up the actors

w/ more gear.  The spot where I wired to car (posted above) wasn't the first time I'd done that

either. 

Philip Perkins

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I think it is pathetic that 2 tracks are requested often just so the telecine suite doesn't have to repatch their equipment. Telecine typically delivers to editorial a videotape with 2 tracks of audio (hey, it's "stereo"). So, what's the problem putting my one track to the two tracks on the videotape?

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

I know the telecine guys don't want to repatch or re-pan--and I prefer that they don't actually.  But why it would be a problem to have only a single audio track is beyond me.  Most of my work ends up as a split boom/lav pair, but lots of times there is only the boom or only the lav so there is only audio on one of the tracks--no whining about that so far.

Philip Perkins

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No offense to you Phillip, but the induction loop is a bit of old technology.  However, I also understand "using what you know works."  The system that  Comtek uses with it's base stations transmits directly to the earpiece, this is used by Jack Nicholson and Johnny Depp.  The have their dialogue transmitted to them from off stage.  This way no induction loop is necessary and no neck loops need to be worn.  I've used induction loops in the past as well, and while they do work, especially when a large number of actors need to be "fed," they are cumbersome and require more equipment than the Comtek systems.

Microphones and speakers are old technology too.  The induction loop is a very cost effective way to accomplish what we've been talking about essentially with gear we already have.  The next time  I work with Mr. Depp or Mr. Nicholson I'll make sure and have the Comtek system you mentioned.  I have used those systemes too and found that they have some serious limitations as well.

Philip Perkins

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Phillip,

Could you explain to me what exactly an induction loop is and more importantly how you have used it in film production. i do understand the phisics of induction, but however I've never heard of this tool in the film apllication. Also I do understand that we all have "OUR" own way of doing things, and there is always more than one way of achieving just about anything on set.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Would the Comtek AP 230 (earpiece reciever) be impractical for use on a child of 7 or there about? Will it fit?

RVD also mentioned a comtek product that includes the base station and an earpiece reciever, but no neck loops. What is that product??

AP230 works with neckloops, have I overlooked something?

I would like to thank everyone who respondent for their input, It really did help, and is a testament to the worth of this forum if anything else as an educational tool.

Thanx Jeff.

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Phillip,

Could you explain to me what exactly an induction loop is and more importantly how you have used it in film production.

If Philip has the time, I'm sure he will be able to give a very good description of the induction loop and its history, but I will say simply thaty if you understand the so-called neck loop it is easy to understand the longer induction loop that covers a large area. Also, I have used the induction loop system (various systems built by me and others) probably twenty times or so in my career --- it was for many years the only way to do silent cueing for musical numbers. There are still good practical reasons to use this sort of system but it is not in general use presently. Most people, including myself, use some RF system rather than induction.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Bartek,

The following are the items to "look" up  on the internet:

COMTEK BST-25 W/HIGH GAIN ANTENNA (PHASE RIGHT) you can get more than 200' of range using the antenna.

PHONAK INVISITY MICROEAR (SINGLE CH.) programmable in the 216 range

the invisity ear pieces are very small and would be perfect for 7 yr old kids.

the prices from purchase to rent or hire is probably to rent:

here in the states, the BST-25 and ea. microear, rents for $50 per item,per day.

to purchase the bst-25 w/phase right-around $1300. the invisity -just went up $900 ea.

the comtek system you are asking about is a neck loop based system that requires your talent or 7 yr old kids to ware a bodypack rcvr (the sixe of a pack of ciggs) and neck loop

(think- thick pasta). and the actual earpiece is a bit larger than the phonak style.

Philip,

I promise you, once you use the invisity and bst-25 on your next shoot, you will put your room loop/amp system on consignment or keep in the back of your truck or van as a backup system.  talk to you later

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Bartek,

The following are the items to "look" up  on the internet:

COMTEK BST-25 W/HIGH GAIN ANTENNA (PHASE RIGHT) you can get more than 200' of range using the antenna.

PHONAK INVISITY MICROEAR (SINGLE CH.) programmable in the 216 range

the invisity ear pieces are very small and would be perfect for 7 yr old kids.

the prices from purchase to rent or hire is probably to rent:

here in the states, the BST-25 and ea. microear, rents for $50 per item,per day.

to purchase the bst-25 w/phase right-around $1300. the invisity -just went up $900 ea.

the comtek system you are asking about is a neck loop based system that requires your talent or 7 yr old kids to ware a bodypack rcvr (the sixe of a pack of ciggs) and neck loop

(think- thick pasta). and the actual earpiece is a bit larger than the phonak style.

Philip,

I promise you, once you use the invisity and bst-25 on your next shoot, you will put your room loop/amp system on consignment or keep in the back of your truck or van as a backup system.  talk to you later

I have used the systems you are describing, and own a BST75.  Your faith in the ultimate reliability of the system is misplaced.  Have you actually used an induction loop system?  It is simple, cheap, has no range problems within the loop and is very reliable.  It also does not involve an out of town rental for us, as no one around here has the Invisity RX.  Talent generally has no issue with the Comtek TX or the neck loops, as many of them own such a system for live/trade show work (w/ a microcassette playback).

Philip Perkins CAS

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Phillip,

Could you explain to me what exactly an induction loop is and more importantly how you have used it in film production. i do understand the phisics of induction, but however I've never heard of this tool in the film apllication. Also I do understand that we all have "OUR" own way of doing things, and there is always more than one way of achieving just about anything on set.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Would the Comtek AP 230 (earpiece reciever) be impractical for use on a child of 7 or there about? Will it fit?

RVD also mentioned a comtek product that includes the base station and an earpiece reciever, but no neck loops. What is that product??

AP230 works with neckloops, have I overlooked something?

I would like to thank everyone who respondent for their input, It really did help, and is a testament to the worth of this forum if anything else as an educational tool.

Thanx Jeff.

The induction loop essentially makes a magnetic field in the space it surrounds (a room with a long piece of wire, an actor's head in the case of a neck loop) that is modulated by the audio.  What the loop is doing is making a dead short of the amps's output.  This technology has been around for many many years and I have used it in a great number of situations, as I've described.  It's advantages are low cost, no range or RF interference problems, and, in the case of the "room loop" no extra receiver or neck loop on the talent (same as in the more modern Phonak "Invisity" systems).  Using the room loop takes some planning and testing and a certain amount of negotiation on the set, and will not work in many sorts of fast-moving dramatic situations.  The neck loop method has worked for me in all sorts of setups, as it is carried by the actor themself.  If you can afford and have time for the rental the RF/Invisity system is well worth looking into.  The neck/room loop type system is far cheaper and something you can better afford to own even if it doesn't get used very often.

I've had trouble with getting earpieces of all types (old Phonak, Invisity etc) to work in the ears of certain actors.  With dancing kids we resorted to tiny pieces of TopStick on the part of the RX that contacted the very outer part of their ear canal, and this got us thru a few takes at a time. (Assisted by makeup and mothers.)  This gag also worked with adults whose ear canals were larger than the RX.  In this case the older non-Invisity induction RX worked better, as they had a soft plastic jacket that held the unit in place in virtually any sized ear.

Philip Perkins CAS

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RVD:  try selling your neck loops on EBay etc--they are still in very common use among corporate "presenter" type talent that drive them with a microcassette (or other pocket recorder).  Maybe an ad on a talent exchange.

Philip Perkins

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Guest Mick

I recently had to use the Comtek/earpiece setup when Roger Daltry (lead singer of The Who, for our younger participants) guested on our show in a Karaoke type scene. He sang live to a pre-recorded soundtrack so we opted on the Comtek system as being the most efficient and in view of his probably being used to in-ear monitors on stage. Big mistake on my part. Over the years Roger has listened to floor monitors and guitar and bass amps at such high SPLs that he is about 40% deaf in both ears. Add to that the fact that because of this his ear canal has closed and shrunk in on itself so much that it was impossible even to insert the earpiece in his ear. To cut a long story short we ended up playing back the track through speakers at a level that we experimented with so that we incurred minimal bleed through on the vocal track, which thankfully was being recorded through a Sennheisser dynamic mic. Absolutely useless in being of help to anyone in this forum but I like the story.

Regards

Mick

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I recently had to use the Comtek/earpiece setup when Roger Daltry (lead singer of The Who, for our younger participants) guested on our show in a Karaoke type scene. He sang live to a pre-recorded soundtrack so we opted on the Comtek system as being the most efficient and in view of his probably being used to in-ear monitors on stage. Big mistake on my part. Over the years Roger has listened to floor monitors and guitar and bass amps at such high SPLs that he is about 40% deaf in both ears. Add to that the fact that because of this his ear canal has closed and shrunk in on itself so much that it was impossible even to insert the earpiece in his ear. To cut a long story short we ended up playing back the track through speakers at a level that we experimented with so that we incurred minimal bleed through on the vocal track, which thankfully was being recorded through a Sennheisser dynamic mic. Absolutely useless in being of help to anyone in this forum but I like the story.

Regards

Mick

Not useless at all.  Being able to play back the track to the talent over a speaker is important for rehearsal, and as you found out vital in the event the earbug system doesn't work out.  I've had this sort of thing happen too, did as you did, and counted myself lucky to have gotten away with it. 

Philip Perkins

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I recently had to use the Comtek/earpiece setup when Roger Daltry (lead singer of The Who, for our younger participants) guested on our show in a Karaoke type scene.

To cut a long story short we ended up playing back the track through speakers at a level that we experimented with so that we incurred minimal bleed through on the vocal track, which thankfully was being recorded through a Sennheisser dynamic mic. Absolutely useless in being of help to anyone in this forum but I like the story.

Regards

Mick

I actually prefer to play back through speakers whenever it is possible, keeping the levels low enough so that a close-miked vocal track has very little bleed. The key question that must always be asked is whether the music track is THE track that will be used in the final production. If that answer is in the affirmative, a vocal track with very low level bleed is almost never a problem.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Mick,

cool stuff on Roger "can you hear me" Daltry. never new about the ear canal thing and 40% deaf. wow.

also,

to back up Philip re: the price to renting the room loop system if Bartek was going that route. amp-$40 0r $50 the room loop (100') $15.00 each ear wig $25.00

it might be cost effective, but it might be alot easier and faster for the rf style in the long run.

thanks.

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Mick,

cool stuff on Roger "can you hear me" Daltry. never new about the ear canal thing and 40% deaf. wow.

also,

to back up Philip re: the price to renting the room loop system if Bartek was going that route. amp-$40 0r $50 the room loop (100') $15.00 each ear wig $25.00

it might be cost effective, but it might be alot easier and faster for the rf style in the long run.

thanks.

I doubt they'd need to rent the loop and amp--any audio amp more powerful than 50w/side will do with some cable from the hardware store.  The earbugs and neckloops (old fashioned non-Invisity type) are fairly common and a lot of people have them already.

Philip Perkins

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