Darryl Linkow, C.A.S. Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Curious as to what people are doing about bookings that get canceled? What do you charge as a cancellation fee? Full rate? Labor and gear or just labor? What do you use as a guideline in terms of notice for charging or not charging a cancellation fee? 1 day notice? 2 day notice? 1 week notice? The reason I ask is that I had a job postpone on Sunday for a shoot, from Monday to Tuesday. No big deal, because I was available for both days and didn't have anything booked for those days. Then I got a call and had to turn down another job for Tuesday. Then the first client contacts me and says that Tuesday has now been postponed until Saturday. So I lose a day on Tuesday, having turned down the other job. So, I am now double booked for Saturday! I call the other Saturday producer and explain to him about the Tuesday job that is now going on Saturday and he understands and hires someone else for my Saturday job. Then the first producer contacts me today and says that the Saturday shoot is now canceled and/or postponed indefinitely. So I have now lost the Saturday shoot for both shows. What do people think is fair for a cancellation fee? Just charge for one day, Tuesday, because the notice that was given was less than two days before the shoot day? Or charge for both days? What do you guys think and do in these situations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptalsky Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Darryl, I work primarily in the low-budget world, so my answer may be a bit slanted in that direction. A lot of how I base my cancellation fees depends on my relationship with the client. If they are a good, steady client, sometimes I waive it outright, sometimes I only charge them partial, or, if as in your case, I missed out on other work, I charge the full fee. In my agreements, I always list full fee as the standard cancellation so that way when I do waive part of it I look like a nice guy. :-) As far as notice goes, anything under three days notice and they pay full. More than one date change, they pay full. Earlier notice is pro-rated (usually) depending on the client. Any client that has cancelled more than once pays in full every time. Also, again, depending on the client, if I charge them full fee, I will occasionally give them partial credit towards a future booking. Also makes me look like a nice guy, and often gets me more work. And the usual disclaimers apply - it really all depends on who the client is and whether they can afford it. I tend to be a bit too nice (even thought I don't sound like it based on above) and waive and reduce cancellation fees. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Colon Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I try to get 1/2 @ 48 hrs and full @ 24... Repeat clients who have legitimate issues will get a break sometimes. Those that abuse my goodwill more than once can find another hack, I like the "partial credit" idea and will incorporate that as an option... thanks. Jeff C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergio Sanmiguel Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 What some producers will do is to put you "on hold" 72 hrs before until they have a go for the shoot, and if they cancel before the 48 hrs mark then the cancelation fee is usually waived... 48 hrs = 1/2 day rate no equipment 24 hrs = full day rate w/equipment 12 hrs = full rate + blacklist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I generally go with the "no harm, no foul" rule--if they cancel and I didn't have anyone else ask me for that day--oh well. If have a booking or a pencil for a day and someone else calls, then I pretty much make it a priority to call the first booker and let them know that I have someone else who is ready to book for that day. Chances are they may have other people asking them the same thing, so that gets them focused on deciding whether to shoot for real or not. If neither one of them wants to commit then I wait until someone does. In this situation, especially for short jobs, it is important to make them understand that a firm booking means they have bought that day if you are letting something else go. Philip Perkins CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 This is industry standard less than 24 hours 1/2 the rate less than 12 hours full rate In the SF area, the standard is that if I've turned something down to stay on your job, and can't get another day from someone else to cover it (if the cancellation happens far in advance), then you are on the hook for the day. There are mitigating factors, sometimes, but this is where we start. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Greetings all. The LA / IA commercial contract is such that you are not truly booked as a day player until 3:00 pm the day prior to the shoot day. I'm not sure about the exact rules in Film n TV, but with commercials, the good companys will pay a cancellation fee to the mixer and boom op if things change, but no gear money if this happens, but they don't have to pay anything if they follow the rules. Read your contract. You work under it and your producer and production company do as well. Knowledge is power. You can still be the good guy and point out that we all work under the same contract if they ask for a favor from you outside the contract.... By law it's a two way street... I'm a commercial mixer 95% of the time, and I'm always amazed at how many of my fellow workers have zero idea of how it all works as to the IA contract. Learn and earn. Your Bro, CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Greetings all. The LA / IA commercial contract is such that you are not truly booked as a day player until 3:00 pm the day prior to the shoot day. I'm not sure about the exact rules in Film n TV, but with commercials, the good companys will pay a cancellation fee to the mixer and boom op if things change, but no gear money if this happens, but they don't have to pay anything if they follow the rules. Read your contract. You work under it and your producer and production company do as well. Knowledge is power. You can still be the good guy and point out that we all work under the same contract if they ask for a favor from you outside the contract.... By law it's a two way street... I'm a commercial mixer 95% of the time, and I'm always amazed at how many of my fellow workers have zero idea of how it all works as to the IA contract. Learn and earn. Your Bro, CrewC That's interesting to know, although I rarely work in LA. Where I live, word gets around very fast about producers who continually pull the kind of cancellation you describe, and they start to find that first-call crew people will jump off their advance bookings as soon as they get another call for that day. As you say, a two way street. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixalot Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I was walking out the door an hour ago when the producer/director cancelled. Not the first time either. He just sent a text that the gig is rescheduled two weekends from now. Not sure how to go about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azw Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 In my experience, in NYC, the good and bigger companies pay a full rate kill fee, no questions asked, if the shoot is cancelled within 24 hours. Everything else is case-by-case, especially for docs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean ONeil Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 In my experience, in NYC, the good and bigger companies pay a full rate kill fee, no questions asked, if the shoot is cancelled within 24 hours. Everything else is case-by-case, especially for docs. Yup. 24 hr cancellation = full rate, labor and gear (even for doc's) is my experience and no one's really even whined about it. Cheers, Sean O'Neil Brooklyn NYC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I was walking out the door an hour ago when the producer/director cancelled. Not the first time either. He just sent a text that the gig is rescheduled two weekends from now. Not sure how to go about this one. Do you like working for this client? Do you feel like potentially burning bridges - and potentially not working for them again? Do they pay well? Did you loose any other work for today? Did they offer any compensation for today? If you answer these questions you will have your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 mixalot: " Not the first time either. " that is a clue... and perhaps at the very least requires a negotiation/discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwil Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Really difficult situation. Jack said: "Do you like working for this client? Do you feel like potentially burning bridges - and potentially not working for them again? Do they pay well? Did you loose any other work for today? Did they offer any compensation for today? If you answer these questions you will have your answer." Good advice. I was due to travel to Africa for a week for a small company. The gig was cancelled less than 48hours before flight. I was not happy as I had turned down other work for this one. I 'discussed' over the phone about some sort of compensation and it was left in their hands. I've had one phone call from them in the last two years since then. Some companies are open to cancellation fees, some are definitely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Even if the company offers to pay compensation I do not charge it. I consider the good will is worth more ultimately than the $$ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixalot Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Do you like working for this client? Do you feel like potentially burning bridges - and potentially not working for them again? Do they pay well? Did you loose any other work for today? Did they offer any compensation for today? If you answer these questions you will have your answer. 1. Yes. 2. I try not to burn bridges, not my thing. I try to be as cool as I can about issues when they come up. I tried to call him to talk but he hasn't responded yet. 3. Not really. 4. Yes. 5. No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 3,4,5 answered it for me. You can have a grown up conversation with them. Explain that you turned down other work for the day and the shoot was canceled an hour before call time and see what they say. If they man up and offer some compensation for the day they are good people that you can deal with. If they become argrumentive and annoyed that you asked for money you know its time to move on. You can choose to not work for them without burning any bridges. Just fulfill your commitment for the rescheduled day and move on. Next time they call you reevaluate if you want to work for them and if the answer is no then politely say sorry I'm already booked for that day. No bridge burning. I don't like to burn bridges either - you never know where people form that production company will end up in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I use a different method to keep from getting into the situation in the first place... As the show approaches, call up production and tell them " Hey can I please confirm the booking" When they say, "yes, the show is still on"... You say..... " No, I need to confirm the booking by confirming and actually booking the day"... I have calls in from other jobs and would love to get your show confirmed.... and on the books.. I can't afford to loose the days, I'd really appreciate it. Most times, they will ask the Producer who will MOST of the time say... Yes, confirm the sound mixer for those dates.... Then, you are covered.... IF at some point it does cancel, you have been confirmed and your bargaining power is much greater... NOT a lock, some will STILL try to squirm out... but, most will not. Try to do this via email for a copy of the conversation. Everything is a negotiation.. even with the rules... as others have posted, relationships float around this situation... it gets dicey... make them commit upfront and use that leverage.... even they don't like to be chumps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 +1 to AFMY said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Do they have the money? Sometimes things get cancelled for one reason or another. If it's bad planning and the kind of client who simply doesn't have the money to pay cancellation fees, then there's no point in asking. If it's a "proper" company with contingencies for things like this, then a cancellation fee would be appropriate. But without some sort of prior arrangement, as described above, I'd imagine it's still hard to ask for and even harder to actually get. How many people here have actually received full cancellation fees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Do they have the money? Sometimes things get cancelled for one reason or another. If it's bad planning and the kind of client who simply doesn't have the money to pay cancellation fees, then there's no point in asking. If it's a "proper" company with contingencies for things like this, then a cancellation fee would be appropriate. But without some sort of prior arrangement, as described above, I'd imagine it's still hard to ask for and even harder to actually get. How many people here have actually received full cancellation fees? Me, a bunch of times.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I imagined that would be the case for you, AFMY, and perhaps a few others in the mainstream commercial world, but I expect that most don't get cancellation fees. I'm curious, and could be completely wrong. It's not really something I've had to deal with. I had my gear at the airport once, ready to ship, when a feature lost its funding at the last second. But that's a rare and unfortunate event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 soundwil: " I've had one phone call from them in the last two years since then. " are you saying they did not compensate you for costing you work, and while you were OK with that, they also did not favor you with additional work ?? Chris: " I do not charge it. " for me: "it depends". especially if I have passed on other work. I'm pretty close to AFMY's method: Often, when I get additional offers, I check with the client I'm already booked with, to be sure they want to keep me booked, and then I may ask for some compensation, again, though, it depends... and rather than burn bridges, I'm just already booked when a client I prefer not to work with calls me... AFMY: " Me, a bunch of times.... " me too, but, of course, not always Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBoisseau Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 For shoots of 1 -3 days, and a cancellation time of 24 hours or less, I have almost always been able to collect a cancellation fee for ONE day rate. I usually have not been able to bill for cancellation of equipment. However, when the shoot is cancelled with less than 24hrs notice and rescheduled for another date, I will usually let the cancellation fee slide knowing that I will be working the job, just on a different day. Bottom line... my decision is on a case by case basis. How will my client react to a cancellation charge? Is this a regular client? Is there a strong possibility of more work with them? Do I like working with them? Did I turn down other work? Can they afford the cancellation fees? After all, they're just trying to make a living like the rest of us! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 How many people here have actually received full cancellation fees? I have. I also have received partial rate as well as having letting them slide. It is all on a case by case basis - for me there is no hard rule. Though if I turn away other work - and they are aware of it - I usual try to get some money. In my experience a good client will generally offer some money if it is a late cancellation and I turn away work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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