Any advice on how to kill an echo in a large room?

[Jan McL]

lol, use the balloons anyway. They will all think you are a genius. Never hurts when they all think that.

Billy

Point. Ha.

-- Jan

[Richard Walters]

Hi Michael...I ran in to a situation simular to yours last November. Project was a short narrative set in an apartment with 6 talent. Lots of dialogue! Problem was the set was built in a large rectangular warehouse with awful reflections. Fortunately they only used one end of the room for the set, so we built a wall of furnie blankets and hoisted them up to the ceiling. I also had 2 or 3 C stands prepped with blankets for quick placement during the various setups. It proved successful and eliminated most of the reflections.

[John Blankenship]

It does matter where the sound absorbers go. Sound absorbing layers such as blankets should not be placed tight against a wall. By having a space between them and the surface, they become more of a broadband absorber and help more with the lower frequencies that muddy a track so badly. Tight against a wall they only dampen much higher frequencies.

Also, I've used the "topper" method with the grips placing a 4x4 above the mic. Ask them to use a "floppy" as it has an extra layer of duvetyne.

In a few situations I've had the grip department deploy a 12x12 solid which can help greatly. For instance, if they need to black out windows, rather than put individual pieces of duvetyne in each window, they put a 12x12 across the wall.

[Michael P Clark]

Hi Michael...I ran in to a situation simular to yours last November. Project was a short narrative set in an apartment with 6 talent. Lots of dialogue! Problem was the set was built in a large rectangular warehouse with awful reflections. Fortunately they only used one end of the room for the set, so we built a wall of furnie blankets and hoisted them up to the ceiling. I also had 2 or 3 C stands prepped with blankets for quick placement during the various setups. It proved successful and eliminated most of the reflections.

That looks great. Reminds me of another situation where we hung carpet padding(found under your carpets at home) in that same fashion in "warehouse" type set. Had production get the thickest we could find, and by the roll. We still heard reverb while shooting, but I'm told you couldn't upon release. By the end of the show they started to tear from the weight. Lucky, they held up until wrap.

Never thought about asking grip to hang a floppy, that's a good idea. Although, I would've expected it to cause problems with lighting. Shot dependent, of course. Beats asking them to throw a 20x20 over the open ceiling in your set. Which our grips were happy to do, several times. We had sound baffles made by construction, that sat on top of the grid, They worked really well for that area. They ran out of money for them to cover all the sets. But in the end, it was barely noticeable at home. Only we would know what we are hearing or pick it up.

[David Waelder]

Thank you, Vin, for your kind notice. (And Robert as well.)

@ Steven (atheisticmystic)

Your inquiry about where the reflections will be hottest leads to answers both simple and incredibly complex. I meant it in the simplest form: the sound from the nearest hard surface is likely to be hotter than from distant walls. And a directional microphone (cardioid, hyper-cardioid) will naturally "hear" more where it is pointed than at the sides. The science of reflections of multiple frequencies bouncing and interacting in real locations is beyond my ken.

And Billy is quite right (as usual) - never hurts to have a bit of magic on your side.

David

[studiomprd]

" I think you took that the wrong way, Senator "

not at all, just felt like expounding some...

[Tom Visser]

I'm going to make up a few Viking "sound hats". Get some Auralex metrofuser and metro foam, glue them together (absorber towards the front and diffusor to the rear), and cutout to the profile of the hat... using the horns to help support the baffle. A chin strap should round out the design. Whenever I see an extra grip, cheeky AC, or newby PA, yell out "hey, help the sound department out for a sec, would ya? Put this on for this next scene"

[WhyOne]

My two cents: While lighting is in progress, stand where talent will be speaking and clap your hands. You will immediately become aware of the first and worst reflection. Often one furnie pad on a c-stand placed strategically will vastly diminish the first reflection. Clap again, and you will become aware of the next worse reflection. Continue with the process until the reverberation you hear is appropriate for the space. If done properly, even in closer shots (with the boom getting closer) you will have a taste of the reverberation, and it will cut well. I also suggest finding furnie pads that are black on one side, so that no light is being reflected.

Of course, there is a down side.... At some point the rest of the crew will think it is cute to applaud en mass while you are trying to do REAL SOUND stuff!

[Jim Gilchrist]

My two cents: While lighting is in progress, stand where talent will be speaking and clap your hands. You will immediately become aware of the first and worst reflection. Often one furnie pad on a c-stand placed strategically will vastly diminish the first reflection. Clap again, and you will become aware of the next worse reflection. Continue with the process until the reverberation you hear is appropriate for the space. If done properly, even in closer shots (with the boom getting closer) you will have a taste of the reverberation, and it will cut well. I also suggest finding furnie pads that are black on one side, so that no light is being reflected.

Of course, there is a down side.... At some point the rest of the crew will think it is cute to applaud en mass while you are trying to do REAL SOUND stuff!

Those blankets Jay's talking about are available here:

http://moverssupplies.com/BW-Sound-Blankets-Producers-Choice-With-Grommets-doz-MS-70G-DZ/

Best regards,

Jim

[Jan McL]

Early in my career I tacked up furniture pads all around rooms and on tops of tables, all in attempts to curb the wandering sound waves. This was during the time period when I employed the Sennheiser 415 as my 'first attack' microphone of choice, this mic had certain characteristics that tended to emphasize the reflected sound, as well as the direct.

When the Schoeps microphone series came out, with their hyper-cardioid design, this had greater side rejection and more emphasis on the direct signal, which to my ear created a more 'natural' sound. I started to use furniture pads less and less, except for under the feet of the actors, this to eliminate foot falls and also this is the area directly under which your microphone is aimed.

We'll see if I can properly load this scene in from a movie I mixed, this scene is shot in a dining room with hardwood floors a long dining table, and actor's with great voices using their instruments. From cut to cut in the scene we did nothing more than to have two Schoeps mics working overhead at all times, the overlaps were rehearsed and played take after take with consistentcy, all shot with a single camera. So this scene was done with four camera set ups and shot over the course of one day.

Richard, that sounds just right. A little teeny bit of cold slap occasionally enhancing the coldness of the argument. Perfect.

Well done.

-- Jan

[Ludovic Lasserre]

Those blankets Jay's talking about are available here:

http://moverssupplie...-doz-MS-70G-DZ/

Best regards,

Jim

Hi guys,

As a (partial) side note, does anyone know where to source equally good sound blankets in the uk (or europe)? black on one face white on the other, with precut holes (gromets?) on the sides for hanging. Essentially the same as Jim's link. Thanks!

[Michael Miramontes]

Everyone,

thanks so much for all the info. I honestly didn't have time to get back to this thread soon after posting it but I did read every single comment just now. I really appreciate all the input as it will be a good reference for future gigs.

Mike

[AndyB]

I've got similar, but not as bad situation for an upcoming shoot. They've built an "alleyway" set in the studio space, with the alley itself being about 8 feet wide and about 40 feet long. The ceiling is nearly 20 feet, but they only built the fake brick wall up to about 8 feet on one side. I think if I can have them fly some light weight frames with carpet remnants on them, this will effectively lower the ceiling and help to isolate the set from the rest of the overly reverberant room.

The scenes being shot in that set range from fairly quiet dialogue to confrontational dialogue and a physical fight scene. I think I'll be fine for the regular dialogue, but the confrontational stuff worries me.

[Marc Wielage]

There was some talk about a "Reverb Remover" plug-in for post mixers awhile back on the Gearslutz Forum:

http://www.dyvision....erbremover.html

I haven't tried either Dyvision Reverb Remover or SPL's De-Verb, but the discussion indicates that while there are artifacts, each can salvage bad tracks to a point:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/579932-need-reverb-reduction.html

As sound mixer John Midgley recently said about his work on The King's Speech, sometimes it's better to use lavs and have the re-recording mixers add controlled reverb later, than give them dialog tracks that already have excessive or inconsistent reverb. Obviously, experience and good judgement dictate the best approach. (Note that one of the responses to the person who asks for help dealing with tracks that have excessive reverb is "try ADR.")

--Marc W.

[Olle Sjostrom]

Another fun low budget trick that does the work is cardboard boxes. They fold, they are light so you can easily stack them .You can paint one side black and the other white and so on. Works ok

[berniebeaudry]

There was some talk about a "Reverb Remover" plug-in for post mixers awhile back on the Gearslutz Forum:

http://www.dyvision....erbremover.html

I haven't tried either Dyvision Reverb Remover or SPL's De-Verb, but the discussion indicates that while there are artifacts, each can salvage bad tracks to a point:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/579932-need-reverb-reduction.html

As sound mixer John Midgley recently said about his work on The King's Speech, sometimes it's better to use lavs and have the re-recording mixers add controlled reverb later, than give them dialog tracks that already have excessive or inconsistent reverb. Obviously, experience and good judgement dictate the best approach. (Note that one of the responses to the person who asks for help dealing with tracks that have excessive reverb is "try ADR.")

--Marc W.

Is the Dyvision plug for Mac or PC? Didn't see any info for platform.

[dfisk]

I've cut dialogue on many a scene that was recorded in a reverberant space. My preference (and this is just me) is to not have the natural reverb of the room. The reason is that no matter how well you record your dialogue, you don't know how the picture is going to be cut, and if there are consistancy issues of the reverb from one cut to another, it can create problems for me. I'd rather have as dry a dialogue track as I can get, and then let the re-recording mixer put reverb on a dialogue aux track during the pre-dub. But again...that's just me, and I bet you could find another dialogue editor with a differing opinion.

[geordi]

Not me, Dfisk, that is my aesthetic as well. People have been amazed by the tracks that I can get, desert dry in locations that are soaked with undesirable noise. I am a FIRM believer in not locking the editor into anything, go for clean consistency FIRST and let the sound designer add what he wants. Until the programmers finally get that perfect sound remover plugin working... You can add anything you want, but you can't take out whats already there.

Better to keep your environment sequestered in its own ambiance track with the room tone, so they have that reference to add back in at the appropriate levels and still maintain clarity.

[Matti]

Is the Dyvision plug for Mac or PC? Didn't see any info for platform.

PC, a better one for PT:

http://www.tacsystem.com/en/products/softwares/000563.php

Matti

[Jim Feeley]

PC, a better one for PT:

http://www.tacsystem...ares/000563.php

Matti

Matti, how have you used NML RevCon-RR? What was good and not so good about it? -- Thanks.

[Matti]

Sorry, never used it as I' m with Nuendo

Matti

[Jim Feeley]

Sorry, never used it as I' m with Nuendo

Matti

Oh well. BTW- some engineers told me they've seen some interesting progress in "reverb removal." Perhaps we'll see something (either a product or a paper) at AES... Not being coy; that's all I know.

[soundtrane]

I haven't tried either Dyvision Reverb Remover or SPL's De-Verb, but the discussion indicates that while there are artifacts, each can salvage bad tracks to a point:

--Marc W.

Marc, used SPL DeVerb recently - works VERY well, but needs a LOT of care (which i think is the way it goes with most plugins)...

[soundtrane]

Matti, how have you used NML RevCon-RR? What was good and not so good about it? -- Thanks.

NML RevCon - too complicated - SPL DeVerb is the way to go. Of course - it is a plugin - which means it's salvage time...

[Chase Yeremian]

This just reminds me of something I've noticed recently. Why, when they are choosing home locations, do they only pick places with hardwood and tiled flooring? Don't they know people still live in places with carpet! What gives! Nice carpets look just as good for the whole couple of seconds you might see the floor on camera!

/rant off