Calibrating Sony EX1 with SD 302

[JDirckze]

Again, I could be wrong, but I believe there are actually limiters built into the mic pre circuitry within the camera that can't be bypassed.

I'm not talking about AGC...

Going in line level from a mixer I could never get the meters past -10.

Edit: Did a little Google action and came across this:

One precaution users of the EX1 must be aware of is that there are non-defeatable limiters which are very crude in their ballistics and have nasty "ducking" effects when triggered in the slightest degree. It is imperative that one uses the attentuators to set the recording level, and NOT the record level dials on the outside of the camera. These should be set at "5", as this is the point where no further increase in recording level can be attained with a maximum level at the input before limiter threshold. Higher settings increase noise floor, lower settings will attain clipping at less than digital FS.

[Matt McGowin]

wasnt there a new standard for compression of audio for tv recently? maybe it only had to do with how loud commercials could be.

or maybe Im imagining things again.

MTM

[BVS]

Yes the commercials were put into heavy control mode so we weren't blasted in the program breaks ( commercial breaks )...it basically sets the levels to be very close to the program levels.

BVS

[JDirckze]

Some more info about these non-existent limiters:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/145931-drop-loud-audio-levels-does-ex1-have-forced-audio-limiter-manual-mode.html

[JDirckze]

And another review:

http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/sony-xdcam-pmw-ex3-review.html

"Lastly the EX3 provides no way to disable the audio limiters

[JDirckze]

More Google...

"The EX1 _does_ have a limiter circuit in the audio chain, but it's not very good. You can't enable or disable it, hence no mentions in the menus, it's just there."

[Jim Gilchrist]

Again, I could be wrong, but I believe there are actually limiters built into the mic pre circuitry within the camera that can't be bypassed.

I'm not talking about AGC...

Going in line level from a mixer I could never get the meters past -10.

Edit: Did a little Google action and came across this:

One precaution users of the EX1 must be aware of is that there are non-defeatable limiters which are very crude in their ballistics and have nasty "ducking" effects when triggered in the slightest degree. It is imperative that one uses the attentuators to set the recording level, and NOT the record level dials on the outside of the camera. These should be set at "5", as this is the point where no further increase in recording level can be attained with a maximum level at the input before limiter threshold. Higher settings increase noise floor, lower settings will attain clipping at less than digital FS.

Jason,

The same article refers to distortion starting at a level that appears to be about -4 or -5 dB, apparently with a mic plugged directly into the camera. A properly set up mixer would be limiting before then. It also talks about not being able to get the output of a mixer to peak at anything above -10. From my experience with the EX1, I get peaks at about -6 or so with my mixer limiter engaging. But none of the artifact discussed in the posting you refer to on dvinfo.net. There's a lot of talk about input level knob position without referring to the level fed into the camera, the position of the line/mic switch, etc.

I'm sure there's an undefeat-able limiter in the EX1 audio chain, but I'm not trying to record fireworks mortars with an electret Audiotechnica stereo mic the poster self-discribes as "old" and getting pumping. I'm running the 0 bBu balanced line level output of a Cooper 104 with it's limiter engaged into an EX1 with both the AGC and LC filter defeated and the inputs set to line level. And I'm making a 24 bit recording as well with my gear. Never had a complaint about pumping with the in-camera tracks, but also evidently I'm not running dialogue at the levels the posts on the other site are either. They talk about distortion when the meters run at 4 segments below the overload warning, so around -5ish. The sound in a Sony F900 falls apart at the same levels as well, at least in my experience, doubtless due to it's undefeat-able limiters.

What I'm trying to say is how much of this reported trouble with EX1's is due to the AA cell in an electret mic going flat, a poorly maintained radio mic as a source, a Rolls mixer or improperly set-up Mackie mixer? These anecdotal reports are just that. My anecdotal report is based on a different batch of gear and a skillset that's based on 28 years as a freelance sound recordist and has a different result. Not better, not worse - just different. My biggest complaints about the camera are the counter-intuitive rotation of the input level controls and the ease of the operator disturbing the return level I've set, not intentionally but because it's poorly placed.

I'd love to analyze the camera's recording capabilities using test gear but it would be difficult to pull together since it's not really possible to test these little cameras input to output like you would do with a mixer or a recorder we use, due to their architecture. You end up also testing the system used for playback as well, so it needs to be measured first, etc.

Back to Karri's OP, be sure the camera AGC and LC (wind) fillter are defeated, use the audio status screen to align the tone from the mixer to -20 dB FS. Be sure the mixer's limiters are properly set up and engaged. If possible, run a quality backup recorder.

Best regards,

Jim

[al mcguire]

jim

that was pretty good for 1:30 am

1 bit that has helped me with these smaller cameras is a cable made from 2 - rca males to a 1/8 " stereo female

plug into the camera audio outputs into the return of the confidence cable and disregard the lawyer-designed headphone circuits

al

[JDirckze]

I'm sure there's an undefeat-able limiter in the EX1 audio chain

That's the only point I was trying to make.

I've never had any complaints either when running sound into an EX-1. We shot with EX-1 exclusively for 6 months on an Ob Doc a couple of years ago. I was using a Wendt X5, and when I ran tone from my mixer and calibrated it at -20 on the EX-1, I could never get the EX-1 meters to peak past -10. I never really took it further, and it didn't really bother me too much, I was only trying to point out to the OP that there are limiters in the EX-1 that could not be bypassed, just in case he was interested...

[Karri]

Well, the gig went smoothly. I found all the relevant switches and the audio setup menu on my own. The shooter showed me the status menu without having to ask. Calibrated to -20, with 302 limiters at +18. Doing a clap test the EX1 peaked at maybe -4, -6 or so (wasn't looking at the status screen anymore at this point, just the no-numbers metering. It was 2 blocks away from the final red block, I think they'd be 2 dB/block? In any case, the return signal from the camera didn't reveal any problems. Unfortunately, no recorder yet, as I'm just starting out as far as personal gear goes.

I've emailed the shooter/editor if he'd export some dialogue for me, I'll post here if they reveal anything worth noting as far as this issue goes. But yeah, in the end it was a simpler affair than I thought. Cheers!

[Simon Paine]

FYI: It looks like that audio status page is becoming standard on Sony cameras. Just recently did shoots with the Sony F3 and the FS-100. The audio status page is found the same way:

Step 1: press Status button.

Step 2: scroll down the menu jog wheel until you see the audio meters.

[Simon Paine]

Also wanted to let people know, even though they are small cameras, there are still options for mounting gear to them.

Last Summer we I did a three month Doc up in Alaska and Yukon. Camera was going with the EX-1's for there small size and "disposable" price point. I was worried at first, but I managed to source some gear that would work.

We got these Brackets: http://www.bracket1.com/brackets.php Which held my Audio Receiver and the Video transmiter.

And we used these battery adaptors: http://www.bhphotovi...ry_Adapter.html

It allowed us to power the Audio RX, Video TX and the camera, from the Sony camera battery. It made for a pretty compact package, and the cam ops liked it because we minimized the amount of extra batteries/weight from the other devices.

I'd say 85 percent of all production audio was recorded to the cameras, without any issues. The other 15 percent was recorded to my 788T multitrack for specific, extra large scenes.

[Rick Reineke]

One precaution users of the EX1 must be aware of is that there are non-defeatable limiters

Not to beat this topic to death, but the manual I'm looking at, clearly shows the Limiter switch on the menu. This is the PWW EX1R Perhaps there are different versions or they changed the firmware?

[api]

Not to beat this topic to death, but the manual I'm looking at, clearly shows the Limiter switch on the menu. This is the PWW EX1R Perhaps there are different versions or they changed the firmware?

I've shot with both EX1 and EX1R. I am not 100% sure, but I think that EX1R has the limiter enable/disable option in the menus and the EX1 does not. One of the major differences between the models is that EX1R doesn't have the infrared bleed problem which sometimes turns black synthetic clothing into reddish-brown color with the EX1. I am under the impression that they did make quite a few other technical changes behind the scenes.

[JDirckze]

I've shot with both EX1 and EX1R. I am not 100% sure, but I think that EX1R has the limiter enable/disable option in the menus and the EX1 does not. One of the major differences between the models is that EX1R doesn't have the infrared bleed problem which sometimes turns black synthetic clothing into reddish-brown color with the EX1. I am under the impression that they did make quite a few other technical changes behind the scenes.

That would explain the confusion! I haven't come across the EX-1R yet...

[Rich Reilly]

Great thread here, folks. And it would be great if all cams offered a defeatable limiter..sucky as it may sound. Sure beats only having AGC or shooting (audio) commando when no audio crew is possible.

[Marc Wielage]

Sony PMW-EX1R manual at this link:

http://ws.sel.sony.com/PIPWebServices/RetrievePublicAsset/StepID/SEL-asset-179595/original/PMW-EX1R_manual_GB.pdf

The older Sony PMW-EX1 manual at this link:

http://www.dvinfo.net/sony/resources/SonyEX1opman.pdf

I agree with the Senator: it's sad that we have to know this stuff when the camera owners do not. I've saved a couple of Red shoots in the past because I just happened to have a PDF manual with me on a netbook...

--Marc W.