Jeff Babb Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 This may be obvious to many but may help others. And its hour 13 and we're shooting inserts. Since I have no way of setting the timecode on my SB3 without "Jumpstart" for my Android or a proper generator, I set the TC on the camera and used that to jam the SB3. Then used the SB3 to jam the TC slate. Then hooked the SB3 up to the 552 where it lives during the day. The camera is re-set to rec-run because they have auto start redundant video recorders. The Duracell Alkaline batteries lasted on the SB3 for 2.5 days. After replacing the batteries I took a jam back from the slate to refresh the TC on the SB3 and continued the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Sounds ok though I'd prefer free run TOD timecode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 The camera is re-set to rec-run because they have auto start redundant video recorders. Two observations: 1) if the cameras are in RecRun, they're going to jam and continue code. The SB-3 is going to continue counting forward, so there's very quickly going to be a point where the camera and sound have different codes. This is the biggest problem with RecRun. 2) If the only reason they're going to use RecRun is to auto-start redundant video recorders, why not just set the cameras to output tape (recorder) timecode only, so that when the camera stops, the timecode stops? That way, the moment the camera does restart, then the timecode will start running again. This should still fire off another VTR in auto-start. I can't see a way to make RecRun work without a physical cable between the camera and audio TC input, or a wireless transmitter/receiver between the camera and the audio TC input. (There may well be cutting-edge ways to do it with WiFi or something, but that's still a kind of wireless xmitter.) How are the other cameras detect that the main camera starts rolling? I assume there's a cable involved. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 The SB3 was jammed with TOD initially and then the camera was set back to 00.00.00.00. The TC was different from the first frame. It didn't matter because it is entirely double system. Both the camera and the SB3/Slate were set to the same frame rate and sample rate. (23.98/48). Every take was slated with the TC slate. There was no tether. Neither I nor the camera dept wanted to be connected. Only one camera so there was no "between camera" issues. As far as the auto-start goes... That's their call. Double System - its all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Paine Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Nice. So the camera was just the source for your initial timecode jam. Pretty good work around. Then i guess you just re-jammed the slate/sb3 and 552 every couple of hours to stay in sync ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 i'm doing a two day gig end of the week with f3. haven't talked to camera guy yet but production said it was just sit down interviews "with some b-roll". but i've got a few timecode tricks up my sleeve with sb-3 and sennheiser g2 with bluecow timecode cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I'm starting a 6 week project with 2 F'3's. I'm using my 788t to jam the cameras and the script supervisors software "Script E". I read on the F3 manual that in rec run if the cards are changed the code has to be jammed again. So I'm going with free run TOD on the code. Also placing a G2 unit on each camera and splitting the 2 tracks on the camera with the internal mic and a scratch mix. Together with all of the reference I'm still gonna send an ID and pip after the clapper board. I think that is enough sync backup ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I'm starting a 6 week project with 2 F'3's. I'm using my 788t to jam the cameras and the script supervisors software "Script E". I read on the F3 manual that in rec run if the cards are changed the code has to be jammed again. So I'm going with free run TOD on the code. Also placing a G2 unit on each camera and splitting the 2 tracks on the camera with the internal mic and a scratch mix. Together with all of the reference I'm still gonna send an ID and pip after the clapper board. I think that is enough sync backup ! 2 thoughts: first, do you know that the F3 will hold sync for a period of time? If it did it would be the first Sony camera in many years to do so. How long will it hold sync? Tests? 2nd: your scripty's Script E system will only hold sync with another TC generator if it is fed TC externally. Without external TC it is relying on the Mac's internal clock, which is notoriously inaccurate. There was some discussion of Script E's "claim" to hold a jam sync without external hardware--this claim was later modified by the company. These sorts of script programs (not just ScriptE) can work very well if they are fed good TC that's in sync with camera etc.. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 The SB3 was jammed with TOD initially and then the camera was set back to 00.00.00.00. The TC was different from the first frame. It didn't matter because it is entirely double system. Both the camera and the SB3/Slate were set to the same frame rate and sample rate. (23.98/48). Every take was slated with the TC slate. So sound timecode and camera timecode were different? That can work, assuming the slate and audio TC are slaved from the same source. Coming from a post perspective, it would be more convenient to have the slate, the audio recorder, and the digital camera all have the exact same timecode all the time. But no question, in the real world, it doesn't matter as long as 1) the sound stays in sync, and 2) you have an assistant editor willing to manually sync up the takes. I did the latter for about 25 years with film, and it's fast and easy once you get the hang of it. And I've worked on several productions where the camera crew said, "screw the timecode box -- we'll just shoot it film-style." Easier for me as a mixer. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Thanks Mr Perkins It is my first shoot with the F3's and my gear check is only next week between reccies. Will a Time code fed comteck work with better with the Script E software ? This is what the scrip supervisor said : GREG: I will definitely be at the gear check thanks. I have also done an interesting test using the smart slate app from IPad. I let the time code run and held it up to my webcam whilst the software ScriptE was running. I entered the numbers and ran some test takes, and the time code logged and correlated to the smart slate app. So I am quite sure you will be able to sync up to the App on my Ipad or just directly into my laptop via the sound mini jack connector? We’ll test this out at the gear check too. I'm not too keen on all this apple app software arriving on set as a solution most of the time ! but I will have to roll with it an entertain other departments on the idea and gear check with it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 So sound timecode and camera timecode were different? Yep. Film-style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Thanks Mr Perkins It is my first shoot with the F3's and my gear check is only next week between reccies. Will a Time code fed comteck work with better with the Script E software ? This is what the scrip supervisor said : GREG: I will definitely be at the gear check thanks. I have also done an interesting test using the smart slate app from IPad. I let the time code run and held it up to my webcam whilst the software ScriptE was running. I entered the numbers and ran some test takes, and the time code logged and correlated to the smart slate app. So I am quite sure you will be able to sync up to the App on my Ipad or just directly into my laptop via the sound mini jack connector? We’ll test this out at the gear check too. I'm not too keen on all this apple app software arriving on set as a solution most of the time ! but I will have to roll with it an entertain other departments on the idea and gear check with it too. Well, neither the clock in her iPad or her laptop is anything close to being accurate enough to hold frame accurate sync, which you can't see with the numbers flying by in any case (display lag etc). The only way to really know the sync relationship is to take a still of both together after they've been running for an hour or more. (As I read her statement that doesn't sound like what she did.) A Comtek TC feed could work, a more stable idea is a jam-syncable TC generator like a small Denecke box or Lockit that you leave hooked up to her system. If her notes don't have to be any more accurate than being in the right minute or so, then the computer/iPad internal clock could work OK. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Yep. Film-style. Got it. Yeah, this can definitely work as long as the assistant editor and post sup are all on-board. I'm about to start a multicam project next week where the producers have opted to have non-matching timecode on four Red cameras, just as a budget issue. It's no big deal as long as they're aware of the issues, and we know going in the slate will be good and the sound will be good. I've had similar issues when the DP vetoed using a timecode/sync box on a camera because of size and weight issues (particularly with Steadicam). But you figure, people shooting film got along without picture timecode for at least 75 years and did OK... --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 So the past 2 days I've been on a gig with ex3(when I was booked they said F3). But anyway, same time code features. My work flow was jam sb-3 to ex3's time of day and use sb-3 to send code to my 552. So I did that and then hooked up my iPod touch so it could display time code. I flipped up the viewfinder and placed the iPod behind it and snapped a pic so that I could get both cameras code and iPod in shot. Camera was leading iPod by 4 frames. I checked about an hour later and same thing. I also tested last week sb-3 jamming with panasonic af100 and found a 4 frame difference. I was able to check af100's by lining up slate in timeline with footage and audio but I was not able to get footage test with ex3 as we didn't have time for me to do a test. I was only recording audio for safety. Was using um200/sra wireless hop on some run and gun scenarios and hardwired in for interviews. But Jeff, have you experienced anything similar to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Paine Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 The Script person on my last shoot was using the ScriptE software. First day we just jammed in the morning because they were assured it would stay in sync all day (yeah right). Within a few hours it was five minutes off. My cart was positioned close to her setup, so I just ran a cable feeding TC to her laptop from my 788t. Worked fine after that. Her notes didn't need to be frame accurate anyways, so all was good. I'm sure a wireless link would work too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 The Script person on my last shoot was using the ScriptE software. First day we just jammed in the morning because they were assured it would stay in sync all day (yeah right). Within a few hours it was five minutes off. My cart was positioned close to her setup, so I just ran a cable feeding TC to her laptop from my 788t. Worked fine after that. Her notes didn't need to be frame accurate anyways, so all was good. I'm sure a wireless link would work too. I thought ScriptE had stopped telling customers that their Mac-derived TC was frame accurate. (Shame.) phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 The Script person on my last shoot was using the ScriptE software. First day we just jammed in the morning because they were assured it would stay in sync all day (yeah right). Within a few hours it was five minutes off. Yikes. A classic 30.00 vs. 29.97 TC mis-match should only be off about 3 frames a minute, which would be 180 frames an hour (6 seconds). If something is minutes off, something very bad is happening. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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