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DAT is dead we are all recording on computers


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I had a little Sharp MD recorder/player that I wish still worked. Digital and analog in and out. If I remember right, it had pretty good battery life for something with spinning media. I guess a Zoom H1 or H2 can do the same thing and record on a SD card in a more usable format. Oh well.

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Absolutely meant legendary Eric! And often wish I was around working in the "Nagra days" ... now its all 10 track and 5K!! improvement I dunno?

Improvement? I don't know either. What I do know is, It was simpler back in the Nagra days since that was the only option available. The demands of production today seem to require 10+ tracks and 10 wireless + boom to do the job. As my 50 years in this business draws to a close all I can say to those that are carrying that burden is "Watch Your Back", it's the only one you have. BTW: To keep it on topic here's a picture taken about 10+ years ago with an HHb Portadat as the only recorder. Before you ask, I live in S. Florida, hence the tan.

Eric

post-22-0-78828200-1319499115.jpg

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Interesting, I didn't know that. I have a red and black one too, but I've already heavily modded it myself, built my own shelf for it and generally rigged it as my main bag-on-a-cart setup. Next steps will be the R12 model with the true off-road wheels, the smart casters on mine get confused by almost anything other than pavement.

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Interesting, I didn't know that. I have a red and black one too, but I've already heavily modded it myself, built my own shelf for it and generally rigged it as my main bag-on-a-cart setup. Next steps will be the R12 model with the true off-road wheels, the smart casters on mine get confused by almost anything other than pavement.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I have a red and black one too, but I've already heavily modded it myself, built my own shelf for it and generally rigged it as my main bag-on-a-cart setup. Next steps will be the R12 model with the true off-road wheels, the smart casters on mine get confused by almost anything other than pavement.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I have a red and black one too, but I've already heavily modded it myself, built my own shelf for it and generally rigged it as my main bag-on-a-cart setup. Next steps will be the R12 model with the true off-road wheels, the smart casters on mine get confused by almost anything other than pavement.

Mine's all red except for the bottom which is grey as you can see. I think the original R&R carts were made in Italy.

post-22-0-62424500-1319580105.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

I had a job last year recording on a clients own Nagra 4.2, he had asked around for anyone who knew the Nagra and my 20 + years with one (actually three of them, a III, 4L, 4.2) qualified me. I jumped at the chance, driven by nostalgia that lasted up to the exact moment that I grabbed the strap and tried to pick the machine up, and then it hit me in the back with the weight of 12 "D" cell batteries. Still, a great day in all. Afterwards I asked him why he wanted to use the Nagra and he said that he wanted to have the pure analog sound for his little video project. Then I asked him what he thought would happen when the audio was digitized to be used in Final Cut, and a slow fog moved across his face, and I said no more.

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I suspect a lot of people believe "analog has a sound, but digital doesn't"... which is probably true, if you're comparing today's better digital gear with some classic analog.

Consider how some pop music producers insist on running their ProTools masters through a generation of 2-track tape. Or insist on analog equalizers or compressors or summing mixers, even if it means another DAC-ADC step.

So maybe this is where that client was coming from. On the one hand, Nagras were as good as an analog recorder ever got, and using one for production sound saves the need for a later digital>analog>digital conversion.

On the other hand, they were heavy. And the stock was bulky and expensive.

...

I wonder... did anybody complain about missing the sound of multi-generation optical, once we got magnetic recording and dubbing?

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Always love that Analog has a sound comment. Great analog is great. Great digital is great. Both can sound bad if done poorly. In today's world, only the best analog is even worth it. It must be well maintained, nay, perfectly maintained in order to be useful. Otherwise, you are just "pounding your put" as my old mentor used to say. Tape is the big sonic desire in this world, but at $250 a roll for 2"...16 minutes...less than 90db of headroom...calibrating every day...hisssssssssssssssssssssss

This kind of out to analog for the sound mostly happens in the music world anyway. I've never seen it it done for sonic reasons in the film world, unless it for the music tracks.

This is also being done less and less. Plug-ins are getting waaaaaay better than they were just a few years ago, and mixers are learning new/better ways of accomplishing the same tasks. I ditched most of that stuff years ago and am happy for it.

I suspect a lot of people believe "analog has a sound, but digital doesn't"... which is probably true, if you're comparing today's better digital gear with some classic analog.

Consider how some pop music producers insist on running their ProTools masters through a generation of 2-track tape. Or insist on analog equalizers or compressors or summing mixers, even if it means another DAC-ADC step.

So maybe this is where that client was coming from. On the one hand, Nagras were as good as an analog recorder ever got, and using one for production sound saves the need for a later digital>analog>digital conversion.

On the other hand, they were heavy. And the stock was bulky and expensive.

...

I wonder... did anybody complain about missing the sound of multi-generation optical, once we got magnetic recording and dubbing?

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I was speculating that Willy's client is actually inexperienced, might not fully appreciate the actual processes of recording production sound on a movie set, and overal the movie will suffer from lots of other issues, --both image and sound--, before any subtle differences between analog production tracks on a Nagra vs. any digital audio tracks becomes noticable...

Now noticing that it was the client that owned the Nagra, I'm still puzzeled a bit about the production values of the rest of the project, but I still doubt the final project will really have a noticeable difference...

Edited by studiomprd
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Guest Christopher Mills

Is there a remote chance that anyone would like the sound of the nagra pre-amp vs a non tc 2 track digital recorder? Actually curious.... and don't know the answer..

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Is there a remote chance that anyone would like the sound of the nagra pre-amp vs a non tc 2 track digital recorder? Actually curious.... and don't know the answer..

This is not an answer to your question, but I would like to sort out why Christopher Mills' identity shows up as Guest_Christopher Mills_* which usually only happens if a member has not registered properly or has tried (unsuccessfully) to change a username or login.

So, Christopher, if you see this, please contact me to discuss this.

Thanks. - Jeff Wexler jw@jwsoundgroup.net

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At one point I owned 7 DAT machines, which was great when they were new and a lot less great as they (quickly) aged. They all acquired "personalities" a lot faster than recorders I had before or since, and had to be babied different ways. Too many weird humid problems. Too many tape compato problems. Too many times having to take apart damaged DAT cassettes and transfer the munged tape roll to a new case and then dub with fingers crossed. I jumped into to DAT with both feet right away, did a lot of good recording with them all over the world, and would now like to never set eyes on another one. This is unlikely, since I still have a backlog of tapes to transfer on my one remaining studio DAT (which requires persuasion to work each time I put a tape in it).

Big props to my man Agamemnon Andrianos who resisted the siren call of DAT to the end, and went directly from Nagra IVs-TC to Cantar.

phil p

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I was lucky to be part of the last bunch of people who worked in the analogue domain. Go ask people nowadays what hysteresis means, and you'll get a blank stare...

Then of course came DAT and then the mini DVD-RAM (Fostex PD6). I must say the DAT tape worked BETTER (and was more reliable) than the DVD-RAM with all kinds of issues with formatting, write/read, Deva II with it's SCSI interface, PD6 with the mini DVD-RAMs...

Of course, and naturally we went from 1/4" to DAT to DVD-RAM and then to HDD.

-vin

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At one point I owned 7 DAT machines, which was great when they were new and a lot less great as they (quickly) aged. They all acquired "personalities" a lot faster than recorders I had before or since, and had to be babied different ways. Too many weird humid problems. Too many tape compato problems. Too many times having to take apart damaged DAT cassettes and transfer the munged tape roll to a new case and then dub with fingers crossed. I jumped into to DAT with both feet right away, did a lot of good recording with them all over the world, and would now like to never set eyes on another one. This is unlikely, since I still have a backlog of tapes to transfer on my one remaining studio DAT (which requires persuasion to work each time I put a tape in it).

Big props to my man Agamemnon Andrianos who resisted the siren call of DAT to the end, and went directly from Nagra IVs-TC to Cantar.

phil p

I'm not too sure about AA's being devoid of DAT. I seem to recall selling him a remote control for an HHb Portadat or a Fostex PD4 many years back.

Eric

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" a remote chance that anyone would like the sound of the nagra pre-amp vs a non tc 2 track digital recorder? "

Well, of course! and not just a remote chance, but a reasonable one...

but it is pretty remote in the real world of movies & TV, with "civilians" in typical settings, and not experienced, working professionals under good listening conditions.

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I'm not too sure about AA's being devoid of DAT. I seem to recall selling him a remote control for an HHb Portadat or a Fostex PD4 many years back.

Eric

You may be right about him having one for commercials (many of which insisted on them--this happened to me), but for his movies and episodics he stayed Nagra until he got his Cantar.

phil p

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I was amazed to learn that in the 3rd season of '24' (back in '04, not that long ago) the Sound Mixer mixed down to a Fostex PD4, a backup Nagra, and 210 Lectro receivers, which are now a far cry from todays 411 and SRs.

What amazes me is that I always revered the Sound from '24' as outstanding and yet low and behold the Sound Mixer was only mixing down to a Timecode DAT recorder with no need for multitrack. These days I see the PD4, 210 series wirelesses, and reel to reel Nagra sitting on the shelf collecting dust on used equipment racks like old outgrown toys. In the case of PD4, asking price for the unit these days goes for 50 bucks. Not even 7 years ago, that same PD4 was taking care of serious business on many big scale projects.

The Production Sound Mixer to the shoot was Bille Gocke during that season. And he states that he relied more on the boom sound than lavs.

Anyway, I thought this was a good read. BTW this article also goes into the location sound detail behind 'Amazing Race 4'. Enjoy!

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_boom_times_tv/

.

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These days I see the [snip] 210 series wirelesses [snip] sitting on the shelf collecting dust on used equipment racks like old outgrown toys.

The way a 210D really shines is if you have a scannable Lectro in the same blk. I use my 411a to scan, and then set my 210D. Just 3 weeks ago, a saw a blk 21 210D/200B sell on eBay for $720. That's an amazing deal.

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