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" I really hope they don't create yet another in-app add on... I'm tired of paying for this app. "

Quitcher-Bitchen'

paying for the options, or levels you need ./ want / use has been around with software for many years, and makes a lot of sense for the developer and the customer....

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I just would like to add, I am part of the architecture of this app. It started out with the request from a VP of a large studio for a paperless solution to the paper sound report as we know it. They also wanted to build a searchable database for the shows they produce.

This is the start of a larger system. The beauty of Pure Blend, they have the vision and technical ability, and writing of the software. To find that in a company is harder than writing the app. The staff has been with Apple from the beginning of the Apple IIe.

We all (sound engineers) have a chance to build and develop this app make our jobs easier and better, not to mention, save paper. Be a part of it!

Thanks

Joe

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Joe, I'm not quite following you. When you write, "I am part of the architecture of this app" is that some sort of Matrix-cyborg thing or did a couple of words get dropped (perhaps saying that you've helped with the design of MovieSlate or something)?

Also, what do you mean by the "staff has been with Apple from the beginning of the Apple IIe"? Looking at the Pure Blend website, specifically this page: http://www.pureblendsoftware.com/profile , I don't see any mention of employment at Apple. Looks like they've worked at companies that produce software that runs on computers made by Apple (and perhaps made some software for Apple). That's all good.

But I'm intrigued. How can we help build and develop this app? What can you tell us about the larger system? Could you convince/encourage a Pure Blend employee to post here? That'd be cool. Thanks.

Could be that Pure Blend

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I do like the app, and I do plan to make use of it on my cart for sound reports - This is a great feature, don't get me wrong.

If the audio input level can be dealt with so that it works with Sound Devices timecode which is obviously NOT at full line level, then this could be a very useful thing to have on set, whether or not you are also using a Denecke.

I'm sure that the timecode drift I experienced can be adjusted by that compensation thing, but as I said, I just haven't found HOW yet, and I probably won't mess with it much until I can get the timecode into the ipad more reliably or easier from the initial sync. Right now, its more than a bit messy having to use that headamp, and that doesn't really work the best. I had to jiggle things to get it to sync, and it took too long, so I wasn't interested in trying it a second time and wasting time on set. If the cable was actually working, I would be happy to leave an iphone / ipod touch connected full-time to my 702, and let the wifi carry the timecode signal to everything else.

For me, the biggest problem that is stopping my use of this to its full potential is that input level. I've bought the add-ons, and my grumpiness about that stems from not truly being able to test them out without buying. Having done so, I see the value now, except for the timecode not working for me.

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I apologize for the bad grammar. Zipping across the states on flight 315 to LA with a few drinks don't help.

"perhaps saying that you've helped with the design of MovieSlate or something)?" I helped with development of the sound DEPT portion of the app.

The application will be growing to work with new hardware in development. The people at Pureblend welcome any and all comments for the better use of the application.

I will invite Cliff to comment.

Thanks

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Jim,

As I noted, the iPad needs a mic level signal.

"If the cable was actually working, I would be happy to leave an iphone / ipod touch connected full-time to my 702, and let the wifi carry the timecode signal to everything else."

I'm trying to understand what your need is for rock steady time code on MovieSlate? Are you trying to generate code for multiple devices? Are you hoping to "network" that code over wifi?

How does your SD 702 fit in the chain? Are you putting down time code onto Channel 2?

Please explain the work flow you are attempting so we all might be able to help you on this.

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Do you have to type the file name that the deva is recording manually every time?

I guess that the advantage of using Wave Agent is that you can change the file names into S/T/N, so if they have to find a specific take it is easier for the editors...

Im so intrigued about all this iPad thing...

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>Sound Devices timecode which is obviously NOT at full line level<

being an analog dinosaur the thought of timecode at line level put me into a cold sweat

I remember wiring a -20 timecode out into a audio patch bay and having timecode leaking into the EMT echo chambers

TC is nasty stuff

al

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I do apologize as well if my posts sounded a bit cranky, my first reply was after an 18 hour day following a night with not enough sleep - Ergo, not thinking clearly. :)

My idea for a workflow (eventually) and this would be an "if the crew decided they wanted it" kind of plan is to have a cart-based wifi zone (I have my own routers already) that any i-devices could join to share timecode viewing. The master would be the Sound Devices recorder, feeding full-time into an ipod touch or old iphone, which then sends that TC via wifi to ipod touch (IPT) being held by the scripty or ipad slate or ipad sound reports.

The IPT and ipads would only need to be TC viewers, so not relying on their internal clocks. This would be the most advanced workflow I can think of right this second, but it is based on the actual current workflow idea I have now:

SD recorder jams once in the morning to ipad, and nobody else gets timecode except denecke slate. Ideally, all three remain in sync without needing a touchup re-jam later, and ipad is used for timecode-correct roll start and stop.

As for the physical connections - I know the ipad only wants a mic level input. That is fine, padding down from a hot level is easy. I mis-tytped before when I said that the SD is not outputting line level - This much is obvious because the cable does not have any pad resistors in it, yet the program is not receiving a hot enough signal from the straight-through cable. What I should have said is that the TC signal is not hot enough in mic level, possibly it is being sent at -60, if a 100% level on the ipad mic translates to 0dBFS?

Yes, Senator, I know I need to contact the manufacturer (Sound Devices) to see if there is any command that can boost that TC output level, or what level exactly it is being sent at. I'm not interested in recording the TC signal as audio unless there is a really good reason, which I haven't had yet.

I don't fault the cable for needing to be jiggled to get it to read through the amplifier box... I had to create a franken-cable in order to get those pins into a tip-sleeve for the amp, then back to the TRRS for the ipad. One of my connections obviously wasn't the best, but that was more a proof of concept than a production-ready cable. The concept I was proving? That the TC needed to be boosted a fair bit from the SD in order to be properly read by the ipad, and I had to get it into the 98% mark before it would read, where the Ambient app worked perfectly at reading with nothing but the original unmodified cable, for reasons that I do not yet understand.

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Jim,

Your idea is not a new concept. The use of iPads, or iPod Touch or even "an old" iPhone is novel, but perhaps not the most robust and or portable system.

This is really off the topic of this thread. If it were me, I'd consider a differant method, that might provide me more functionality than just "broadcasting" time code.

A Zaxcom IFB 100, sending time code (and production audio too) to an ERX 1 TCD IFB Receiver.

http://www.coffeysound.com/Zaxcom-IFB100-Remote-Control.html

http://www.coffeysound.com/Zaxcom-ERX1TCD-IFB-Receiver.html

Script can hit the "hold" button to mark down timecode and at the same time listen to your mix! All in one small and robust package.

Tony Johnson is using these to transmit Timecode and audio to the multiple Red Epic cameras on Peter Jackson's "The Hobbit".

Now back to MoveSlate and iPads.

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Richard,

The pictures you post suggest that the device can log the code when the slate is clapped.

Does this apply when using an external Denecke slate? That is, does it automatically recognize the plosive event of the slate clapping and log the code at that moment? Or is that function only applicable if you are using the ipad as your slate?

I visited the application site but couldn't find conclusive information on the question although the absence of any mention of that feature in the "Timecode Sync Features" column would suggest that it may not be a feature usable with external slates.

David

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Looking at the Pure Blend website, specifically this page: http://www.pureblend...are.com/profile , I don't see any mention of employment at Apple... Could you convince/encourage a Pure Blend employee to post here? That'd be cool.

Hi guys. Thanks for the invite. By the way, I'm not trying to hijack your thread, or pitch my software-- just here to answer some questions.

I was never an Apple employee, but have worked on contract jobs for Apple during the days of the Newton. My most visible contribution was an Apple/Symantec collaboration: I wrote the "ACT! for Newton" app. Jim is correct: I have also developed and published third party software programs for various platforms: CP/M, DOS, Mac, Windows, Newton, Pippin (remember that one?), the web, and now iOS (iPad, iPhone).

How can we help build and develop this app?

I originally created MovieSlate for myself-- to help with logging on an indy interview shoot we were doing at the time. I have never worked on any studio production.

So we're extremely grateful to all the industry folks who have contributed many MovieSlate feature suggestions-- and to some like Joe Foglia who have invited is on set to really understand your workflows and needs. And we're grateful to a brave handful of beta testers including Richard Lightstone, Steve Morantz, and Jeff Wexler. All your insight and experience is very much appreciated.

Bottom line: the way to help guide MovieSlate's evolution is to send us suggestions, feedback, and bug reports (sigh).

What can you tell us about the larger system?

Not a ton of specifics just yet. Joe is correct that the overall goal is to develop features geared for specific departments, and to get all the departments sharing data, attempting to reduce the amount of redundant data entry. Our next big release will focus on the importing, sharing, syncing data along with more data export/report options. After that, we'll be working on features to help Script Supervisors.

Earlier in this thread, someone asked about pricing. Unfortunately, the App Store's business model does not provide developers like PureBlend with a way to charge for app upgrades (the traditional way most software companies have made a profit, and been able to continue to improve their apps).

We considered the model of creating complete new apps each year (like "Office 2011" or "iWork 09") and charging a new annual admission fee, but that seems like a lousy way to treat loyal customers to us.

Instead, we've opted to charge for entire new feature sets that are geared toward a specific department-- that we call plugins (like the "Sound Dept" and "Timecode Sync" plugins). Our pricing rationale is: if we can save a MovieSlate customer just a single hour of work, then the plugin was worth the customer's investment.

We apologize for our current website being out of step with MovieSlate 3.0 features. We've been working on a new MovieSlate-only website, and hope to have it live next week. It answers a great many of the questions discussed here, and will include some video of the app in action.

If there's something else I forgot to answer here, please remind me. Thanks so much for your interest, guys.

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It's great that Cliff has jumped in and hopefully he will have time to answer some questions in more detail, later.

To answer David Waelder:

If you are using MovieSlate as a stand alone device, then, yes, it would log the point of slate closure. Maybe Cliff and his developers will have some method of capturing a Denecke slate closure down the road.

But I wonder why is this even necessary, with today's automated acquisition systems? For example on shoots with the Red, Outpost provides a Data Wrangler right on the set to sync the separate camera images with the sound files before sending it to the picture department.

That person does the same thing Assistant Editors have done since the days of Magnetic track dailies; find the visual point of slate closure and move the sound track to that same place -- voila. It may be faster due to automation but it's still an Assistant Editors job.

Why should we be so concerned with getting frame accurate slate closure points, or for that matter logging the timecode start of a take? The file header has the timecode data of exactly when we rolled our recorders.

So is it important that MovieSlate becomes the most accurate timecode reference? I don't think so, as I've said before, the timecode logged to the individual takes in "History" is merely a reference. Perhaps an Assistant Editor will find it useful to find a take.

But as the automation of matching the media files progresses, alot of this information on reports, wether written by hand or electronically will become redundant.

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Manel, When you tap the Filename box this pops up: post-273-0-66935400-1317745411.jpg The Numerals section can be set to increment. All of the the Sound Department Slate information can be controlled in the Settings, "Slate Behavior". As seen below post-273-0-21266600-1317745623.jpg

Thanks a lot Richard!

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If you are using MovieSlate as a stand alone device, then, yes, it would log the point of slate closure. Maybe Cliff and his developers will have some method of capturing a Denecke slate closure down the road.

When using MovieSlate's own onscreen clapper sticks, the shot's start point is indeed logged as soon as the sticks come together.

We've been working with a German company called Pomfort who make a new iPad case called the MamboFrame-- which adds physical clappersticks to the top of the iPad. Pomfort's external clap detection software is built into MovieSlate 3.0, and works by listening for the clap, and optionally for accompanying movement (to help reduce false positives). Shortly after the MamboFrame's sticks come together, MovieSlate logs the shot to its History. It works fairly reliably, but is not frame-accurate because it takes a frame or two for their software to detect the clap sound.

MovieSlate's optional Timecode Sync plugin has an option to start/stop shots when the external timecode starts/stops-- but not when external clappersticks come together.

Precisely detecting external clappersticks will likely require a hardware solution-- probably a dock connector cable between an external slate and the iPad.

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Why should we be so concerned with getting frame accurate slate closure points, or for that matter logging the timecode start of a take?

I agree with Richard here, I don't know how valuable any of the "clap slate detection" routines really are. It doesn't really provide anything that I can see that really relates to the most common syncing routines telecine/editorial are using these days.

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Why should we be so concerned with getting frame accurate slate closure points, or for that matter logging the timecode start of a take? The file header has the timecode data of exactly when we rolled our recorders.

Speaking as somebody who has probably synced up over 20,000 takes in post (and I think that number may be very low), I can tell you it's not that important from my point of view. The numbers are always dubious anyway, even if you have a human do it beforehand (which Complete Post did for many years). And it's even more specious when there's multiple slates. Only the clap really matters. The numbers just get you close.

I totally agree that if the log just had a general number a second or two earlier than the clap, that would be a good guide for the assistant editor (or the data operator) to make sure, "yes, I have the right sound for this take," or "no, this take does not exist." That's really what they look for in log sheets. It's especially important for wild tracks and room tone, stuff like that which gets no clap.

BTW, many of the computerized dailies systems (like MTI Control Dailies and Technicolor's Bones Dailies) have an "auto-sync" mode which will seek out a "clap"-like sound near the beginning of each WAV file. While that's going on, the data op plays the picture file until the sticks close, hits a button, confirms that it's in sync, and bang... goes on to the next file. Literally, the show gets synced up 5X faster than real time, pausing only to verify the clap at the beginning and first few seconds of the scene. That's how many (if not most) digital shows are done nowadays.

I do love the idea of a great-looking PDF sound log that requires minimal human intervention. But at the same time, the idea of a Wi-Fi / Bluetooth connection between recorder, slate, and logging program is really seduction. Enter the info once at the recorder, and it automatically gets sent everywhere else: notes, take numbers, circled take, false starts, start timecode, the DIT station, the whole deal. That would be fantastic. Maybe MovieSlate is the beginning of this kind of era.

--Marc W.

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Can the TC, instead of being jammed, be inputted via entry? Will the Sound Department add-on work without the TC option add-on? Since accuracy of TC is not important(in terms of frame accuracy) for reports, could MovieSlate take a "keyboard input" jam, twice a day? Since we are typically(at least for me) running Time of Day TC, couldn't we just run off the internal TOD clock of the phone or iPad?

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Not to drift too far off topic, but i found a utility called "hacktivator" that allows printing via airprint to non wifi enabled or approved printers from the Ipad. I tried it, it works perfectly. I was able to print from my ipad to my printer which was connected via USB to my desktop Imac. Works with window too. I even thought "Hack" is in the title- no jailbreaking needed. It took 2 minutes to install and start working.

found it here: http://netputing.com/2010/11/11/airprint-hacktivator/

Could be useful if you need to print out those movieslate reports.

john

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If you are using MovieSlate as a stand alone device, then, yes, it would log the point of slate closure. Maybe Cliff and his developers will have some method of capturing a Denecke slate closure down the road.

But I wonder why is this even necessary, with today's automated acquisition systems?

Oh, I don't know if it's necessary; I was just curious.

The Cantar has a slate detector function. The recorder "listens" for the clap and logs the code for the pdf report when the sticks close. It does a pretty good job of distinguishing the clap from other loud sounds like hand claps, etc. - not perfect, but pretty reliable. There is even a function to confirm that the "plosive event" is, in fact, the slate. One presses a button combination (shift-sliver) within six seconds of the clap to confirm the slate. Unconfirmed slate numbers appear in the report in italic type, confirmed slates in roman.

Whenever I've called that feature to the attention of an editor they've been impressed and pleased with it. But, as to whether it really serves a valuable function for them - I don't know.

Anyway, knowing it was possible, I was curious whether MovieSlate had that feature.

The MovieSlate does seem to be a very cool device, very well implemented. It might be nice if it were also available for laptops as well as ipads.

Of course, the curmudgeon in me observes that it's another example of replacing very simple technology - a pencil and pad of paper - with very complex elements. In much the same way that timecode itself replaces (more or less) banging two sticks of wood together.

David

Edited by David Waelder
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Can the TC, instead of being jammed, be inputted via entry? Will the Sound Department add-on work without the TC option add-on? Since accuracy of TC is not important(in terms of frame accuracy) for reports, could MovieSlate take a "keyboard input" jam, twice a day? Since we are typically(at least for me) running Time of Day TC, couldn't we just run off the internal TOD clock of the phone or iPad?

Hi Michael. Yes, you can tap on MovieSlate's timecode display (on either the Slate or SoundDept screens), and a keypad appears where you can quickly enter timecode by keying it in, or tap a "Clock" button to use time of day (the iOS device's internal clock time).

Either plugin will indeed work with or without the other. In other words: you don't need to purchase the Timecode Sync plugin in order to use the Sound Department plugin. But they both work great together.

One last thing about the plugins: you only need to buy them once, then you can use them on any iOS device that's associated with your iTunes account. So if you have an iPhone and an iPad, just buy the plugins once. On the other device, you go to MovieSlate's Settings > MovieSlate Store, and tap the RESTORE button. Again: both devices must be using the same iTunes username and password.

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