Recent Grad, Lo-Budget Shoot for "We newbies..."

[atheisticmystic]

Greetings fellow adepts, while this job offer is way below the going rate for experienced sound peeps, it may be appropriate for other noobs like myself who run a modest, 2-channel, basic ENG style kit with 2 or 3 wires and a boom. It was forwarded to me by recent graduates of the New York Film Academy in Universal City:

The shoot is four weeks, 10/22-11/20, with 5 or 6 days shooting per week. They want 2 wires minimum, preferably 3, and are offering a flat rate of 4k plus an Associate Producer credit. They have (2) B-list actors signed on, and distribution for whatever thats worth.

PM me if you have something online I can send the Producer to, or your contact info.

Best,

Steven

[MatthewFreedAudio]

Man, anyone can get a producer credit these days. That would explain the numerous "producers" on set who have no clue what they, or anyone else, is doing.

[geordi]

I think even with my limited experience, I can translate this a bit:

$1000 per week, 5 OR 6 days (means six) per week shooting... Means most likely full 12 hour days.

That means... $166 daily, and for a 12 hour, you will be getting $13.80 per hour for yourself and your kit.

Now, lets look at the gear. They want 3 wires. It doesn't matter that they SAY they want two and would "prefer" three... They will push a victim to come up with that third. So lets just call it 3. Add a 3 or 4 channel mixer, you are right in the $2500-$3000 ballpark with nothing else.

Now, how about decent lav mics, and maybe a decent AT boom b/c you know they will expect that? Add on another K to the gear.

So for your gear rental (assuming a 1% rental daily rate) is $40, so the rate for YOU is now.... $122 for a full day.

I don't think I would even get out of bed for that little, I make more being a stage hand box-pushing gorilla. That is at least $15 per hour at a LOW paying gig, as much as $27/hr at corporate rates.

Maybe they have spent too much on their cast, maybe they are testing the waters to see exactly what the lowest someone will accept actually is. Just for giggles, you can forward them my website: www.gatoraudio.com and we shall all see if they contact me or are willing to up their offer. I'll happily share any results here, b/c I'm reasonably certain when I present a fair rate with my modest collection of gear... I'll never hear from them again.

The sheer audacity of some of these lowball numbers just amazes me. Where did some of these crews go to school that they learned that the sound crew LIKES going into debt for each project or earning burger-flipping rates when we have to bring our own gear?

[Bondelev]

According to David Mamet, the definition of associate producer credit is "what you give your secretary instead of a raise." (STATE & MAIN)

[Chase Yeremian]

Don't forget that you will be the entire sound department. So you will be doing the job of 3 for the rate of 1/3rd of the utility alone.

[Marc Wielage]

The sheer audacity of some of these lowball numbers just amazes me. Where did some of these crews go to school that they learned that the sound crew LIKES going into debt for each project or earning burger-flipping rates when we have to bring our own gear?

A re-recording mixer I know has a great line to use when he encounters a low-ball producer: "I'm sorry, but I'm not in a position to invest in your project. I have certain fixed costs I can't change. I can work with you to a point on your sound budget, but bear in mind your movie is an artistic expression for you, but it's a career for me." (Or words to that effect.)

I agree with Geordi: you can't rent three bad wireless mike systems for $166 a day, let alone a human being, a mixer, and a recorder. At some point, you gotta just say no.

--Marc W.

[atheisticmystic]

Jim, no translation necessary

They're recent grads, and they have actually budgeted (although poorly) for sound, that puts them far ahead of many that offer me work. Your website states that you have over 20 years in the entertainment industry, so as my OP indicates, this gig is NOT for you.I however, have been out of school for about a year and a half, and I would work for that amount. I don't know anyone in the industry, and am willing to make early sacrifices to get established.

A mentor tells me that if the pay is not good, don't take the job unless it presents me with a learning opportunity, or will offer new contacts. That's where I'm at right now. The chance to work with professional and recognizable actors would be valuable to building my skill-set, and professional demeanor.

I hesitated to post the job because I knew it would offend some. And if there is a protocol here, a minimum amount offered before posting a gig, please inform me. I get so much out of being a member here, and am happy to play by the rules.

Best Regards,

Steven

PS Well quoted Prófe Bondelevitch!!!

[Marc Wielage]

Sacrifices are one thing, but you have to bear in mind that when you take very low-paying gigs, it reinforces the opinion in the mind of filmmakers that "this is what sound is worth."

I occasionally will do charity gigs or shoots for close friends for free, and I also try to price the work I do based on the distance and the amount of labor (and trouble) the shoot requires. I'm realistic with compromising on my fee if we're shooting one guy sitting in a chair for an hour, 5 miles from my house, vs. chasing 6 people running down the street in downtown LA in the rain for 12 hours. That's a whole different deal.

Check the rental prices of every major sound vendor in the country, and see for yourself what 3 wireless receivers & transmitters, a simple mixer, and a recorder will cost to rent for a day. We're talking a minimum of $5000-$6000 in equipment (and that's for low-cost gear). Whenever I get hit with bids this low, I tell them, "hey, listen, I'm going to use up $20 in gas and $30 in batteries for this project -- realistically, it's gotta be 'Price X' plus my labor." I have a short form letter I send people like this with the names and phone numbers of five local film schools, and tell them, "if you can find a student who can borrow gear for free, then they might be able to work within your budget."

The other danger of working this cheap is, the next time these same producers do a shoot, they'll expect you to work for the same rate. Not good from a negotiating point of view. $13.80 an hour ($166/12) is not great; double that ($350/12) might be a good starting place for a very low-budget project, assuming you could borrow equipment and work out of a bag. And it'd be wise to make it clear up front that they pay OT if they go over 12 hours. Some of these ultra-low projects are planned at 12 hours and quickly snowball to 16 hours or more, which isn't fair to anyone who isn't getting compensated.

--Marc W.

[geordi]

Steven, what my website says is accurate, but I'm not too far off of your position either. I've been working as a stagehand in just about every department for 10 years now, and have had my own sound PA rig for that 20 years. Undergrad is mixed in there, I've been working gigs all throughout, and haven't had a "normal" job for almost 12 years now. Doing sound for film is where my passion is (that I didn't know I had before) and I'm about 2 years out of grad school for that.

At the same time, being a neophyte in the production sound world, I feel you on the "nobody knows I exist and I want to get experience and meet people" aspect. I'm there too. HOWEVER - Mark has some VERY good points in the post right above this one, which relates to setting a proper value for yourself and our craft in general.

If you buy a hammer, you expect that it will perform the job of a hammer, for about $10, right? If it costs $30, there had better be some extra features like a comfort grip, knobby head, axe blade... Something. If it costs $2 from Harbor Freight... Are you going to respect it?

Underpricing yourself won't just hurt you on the current gig, especially when you are starting out. People don't know you yet, so the first time they hear about you, if they hear your rate is $13/hr with gear, are they going to respect that you know what you are doing? Doubtful. That will stick with them, even if they hear your tracks and they are the greatest thing ever recorded. By the same token, going nuts and saying you should get $1000 per day plus gear will equally get you noticed in a bad way. Be the $10 hammer that people expect to pay for... They will always try to get a bargain, which is where Mark's tailoring of the prices comes in. Reduce your rate if you feel that you have to, but don't give away the farm.

I'm still working in the same market where I went to school. I'm renting gear (not sound gear) to the students, both as a way of making money and keeping my name out there. These people are both friends and future colleagues in this industry. I also do sound mixing for them, but neither for free or for full retail rates. I understand they have limits on their own budgets as students, and they understand (because I tell them) what a retail rate might be, and that they are only getting this rate b/c they are students. I also say that if I have the opportunity to test out some new gear or technique that can benefit their project, it might happen. On a pro project, of course you want to be fully focused and not experimenting.

I don't know what the retail rates in your area might be for mixers and gear, but around here (what I like to consider about a "D" level market if LA / NYC are "A" level and someplace like Miami is a "B" level)... I have been offered $350/10 with gear for a basic 2-3 wire day, double system b/c they were shooting on a 5D. I'm not crazy about that rate, but at the same time, it is in line (sadly) with what has been happening around here. I also haven't taken that b/c the gig is still pending, and I don't know if I will even be available when it finally drops.

What I have heard, and this really disturbs me a LOT, is on some of the independent projects (one with a decent budget) if the crew were handing in their hours and had any OT marked on it (regardless of how long the actual shoot day was) then that OT would be paid... But that crewmember would be replaced on the next day. Basically - Their operating mode was "You will accept 10 hours pay for however much we work you... Or this is your last day." This is HIGHLY improper, if not illegal. We have to protect ourselves, always. Setting a fair price for the work we do is the first step.

[RPSharman]

I understand rates like this for shorts and such, which have no hope if making a profit. Those are jobs on which to gather experience and make contacts.

A 4-week feature shoot with "recognizable" actors is a made for profit project. And as such, the crew should be paid properly. Frankly, if they go cheap, being content with bad sound from an inexperienced mixer, then they get what they deserve. It's just bad producing. Some will get lucky and some will not.

Good luck to whoever takes on this silly project. For me, it's not about the money. You will not service your career by recording bad sound. As mentioned earlier, when they get money on "the next one", they'll hire someone with more experience.

[studiomprd]

Another "cutting the grass" discussion!

While it sounds like a gig is paying someone $1l/week, in reality the equipment alone is worth more than that, and they know it!

Film school grad ?? have they ever been on a real, working, proper movie set ?? what most students learn working on student projects are a lot of bad habits, and wrong ways to do things and make a movie...

First things first: " I would work for that amount. "

that takes care of it, the gig is taken...

" The chance to work with professional and recognizable actors "

which, BTW, means it will be a SAG gig, and who are they?? really??

and, as it is a SAG gig, you want exactly the same terms and conditions as the SAG actors get! in writing!

" Means most likely full 12 hour days. "

if only!!

They will almost certainly be mostly 14 hour + days... (and don't forget late meals, and no second meals!)

and that is for all the usual "student film" reasons:... BTW, it will probably go extra says, too, all for that flat rate...

no blocking rehearsals, no stand-ins late & slow start, and basically not knowing how a movie set works...

(and don't forget late meals, and no second meals!) permits ?? insurance ?? NIB.

" plus an Associate Producer credit. "

BFD

as an investor, you would legitimately earn an EP credit!

" (2) B-list actors signed on, and distribution for whatever thats worth. "

that is worth a back-end deal, in writing.

" it reinforces the opinion in the mind of filmmakers that "this is what sound is worth." "

and especially: "this is what you are worth!"

" charity gigs or shoots for close friends for free, "

beware: many supposedly charity gigs are scams, and not really for a legitimate charity; I've seen way too many times the actual charity was not really involved! I'd rather do the gig for friends, or those who have already done me favors; these strangers are not your friends, and are only interested in getting your services on the cheap.

"We're talking a minimum of $5000-$6000 in equipment (and that's for low-cost gear). " this is the cutting the grass part... what if something happens to your gear, and you end up having to rent this stuff, at these prices..

" They want 2 wires minimum, preferably 3, "

notice they don't even mention a boom mic. That tells me a bunch: they are making the sound mixer's decisions for her/him, and probably not really good decisions, either. What they need to be searching for is a sound mixer who looks at their materials and tells them what they need (and how much it will cost!)... Well at least the sound mixer pitch didn't include the usual "great script, wonderful story, everyone really loves this project" CRAP.

" You will not service your career by recording bad sound. "

and this is important: these folks will ultimately set you up to record bad sound! They will be behind, have poor (but cheap) locations, and not wait for noises to be gone, they will be shooting with multiple cameras and poor lighting and all the other things that will make your one-person-band sound job hell...

may I humbly suggest you go back several months to Rado's experience doing a movie for some fresh out of school movie students....

NIB = not in the budget

Edited October 19, 2011 by studiomprd

[Olle Sjostrom]

Don't do it!

I'm not going to tell you exactly the same things as the others have, I agree with them 100% though, BUT, one key point they're missing IMHO and you're also missing out on is:

If the job sucks you are stuck with a sucky job and it will be on your resume and in your memory backpack for future jobs.

You might be pessimistic of the future and of your career.

It's a dangerous path. I've been down it a couple of times. So not worth it.

I can tell you that I've been on so many bad shoots with lots of inexperienced people. I've been fortunate enough to have been working on "proper jobs" simultaneously with the "improper jobs" so I could tell the difference. But if I had been doing bad jobs before I started with the good ones, I'm pretty sure I would've been quite cynical about ANY job really. One bad shoot is enough to ruin your whole life. Or at least a good portion of your life.

[studiomprd]

" you are stuck with a sucky job "

and if you bale, you probably won't get paid...

" it will be on your resume ... for future jobs. "

no sweat, as it will be something else on a CV that no one ever heard of!

and another thing: The equipment takes at least as much of a beating on these basically unpaid (net result!) gigs as it does on the proper ones, and sometimes even a worser beating!

[atheisticmystic]

Copy that to all.

Although I do sense a sort of accumulated "sound guy" frustration that gets statically discharged on posters like myself when this topic comes up, I fully understand (and agree with) your salient points:

1-Cheap gigs force bad sound

2-Bad sound=bad career

3-All directors get the sound they deserve

4- Professor Senator is damned sexy when he obsessively quotes, cuts, and pastes in multi-chromatic, italics-fortified fashion!

Consider me schooled on this module.

Steven

[studiomprd]

" 2-Bad sound=bad career "

I'm really not so sure about this one...

keep in mind, no one is ever gonna' hear this POS, and if they don't have the budget to shoot it, they won't have the budget to post it, and besides, it will all be post's fault!

Steven, I thought you were doing this one..??

Edited October 19, 2011 by studiomprd

[RPSharman]

Steven, I thought you were doing this one..??

No. No, my quoting friend. Steven posted this because he was NOT available. But he stated he would do this if he were available.

I think it's wise not to choose work based on the rate (when considering doing those "cheap" jobs). I look at the script and ask questions about number of cameras, etc., and determine if I think I can do a good job. This usually means boom only.

I have turned down some well-paying bag work because I don't feel I am right for the job.

Robert

[Marc Wielage]

We should post a list of the indie producer issues that set off "alarm bells."

For me, it's when they have no insurance, no permits, and balk at OT. Lack of a deal memo is another good one.

I get that student shoots only have so many resources. But I've done a few AFI shoots where I was told, "the school insisted we get permits and insurance," so at least in that case, they're making an attempt to follow the rules.

I have been offered $350/10 with gear for a basic 2-3 wire day, double system b/c they were shooting on a 5D. I'm not crazy about that rate, but at the same time, it is in line (sadly) with what has been happening around here.

Yep, it's happening in LA, too. I'll might go for this if it's a very simple 1-person interview, but once they start throwing in multiple wires and a boom, plus multiple locations, it's just not worth it. One would think that, since they're saving so much by using a $2500 camera (the Canon 5D), why, there'd be lots of leftover money in the budget for sound...

--Marc W.

[Michael Miramontes]

So, to help us newbies out with setting a standard rate for our work, what would you guys suggest is fair?

[atheisticmystic]

This sounds like such a fair and rational question Michael, one that bounces in my head as well.

Am I being paranoid, or is this one of those "biz"-specific issues where the established pros "cant tell you how to do it, only how NOT to do it".

I do like Marc's suggestion of 350/12 as a starting point for a lo-budget with a modest kit, as well as Robert's tactic of evaluating jobs via non-rate factors.

I'd REALLY like to know though, from you established pros here...what did YOU do starting out, when the rent was due; you never took a questionable gig just to be able to afford calories and sundry sustenance items???

With open ears and a humble heart,

Steven

[jason porter]

I would never take the gig, but...

I have no problem with someone offering this rate for this type of project, on 2 conditions-

1. Everyone, EVERYONE is being equally "boned"

2. Everyone is given a percentage, if a profit is ever produced (big IF, I know)

What bothers me is when a "real" prod co offers a lowball rate and says "that is the going rate" or some other load of bull about budget, etc.

[taylormadeaudio]

Hey guys,

I just wanted to offer a bit of info that might help. I've been doing production sound for about 20 years -- started as a boom op, eventually started buying gear and getting more mixing gigs... I had one client in particular that consistently low-balled me on my rate (especially kit rental) -- even after they became a union signatory. Why did I keep working for them? It was the best choice at the time -- I needed the $, blah blah blah... it's the same reason anyone is compelled to do something they don't want to do.

On one hand, I regret taking some of those gigs for such a low rate, but on the other hand, it lead to other gigs, and it put bread on the table. Here's the catch: I set a precedent with this company that I'm still fighting to overturn. Yes, I still work for them -- it's symbiotic... and it's gotten much better. I had to turn down a few gigs before they came back to me and agreed to pay me what I was asking -- but they did -- because it was still a very competitive rate, and they knew they would get more than their $'s worth.

I guess my point is that you have to balance the here and now with the big picture -- there's a calculated risk you're taking -- every time you bid on a job, or accept a rate. Every person will have their own set of reasons and their own motivation for taking or not taking a gig.

Ultimately, the best rule of thumb? : Balance

You get what you pay for. (meaning, give them a level of service commensurate to what they're paying)

I know there's a level of ambiguity there, but it's deliberate -- you have to decide what's fair for you. With as many people choosing to become soundies these days, the market will get more competitive. We'll never have a consensus on rates -- there's always gonna be someone more desperate who is willing to do it for less.

Jim Hulse's hammer analogy is perfect.

If I were to find myself in a position where I felt I had to take a job like that, I would offer them a Shure FP33, an Audio Technica ATR-55, and a dummy slate -- they supply the batts.

(of course, I'd have to go out and find a Shure FP33, an Audio Technica ATR-55, and a dummy slate, but...)

~tt

[taylormadeaudio]

Hang in there Steven...

I've gotten completely peeled on jobs for way less than $350/day, and then had insane cake jobs where I made $5000 in 2 days for essentially running playback... and everything in between.

The more you do this job, the more you'll figure it out -- and you'll very quickly learn whether or not it's what you really want to do -- if you have a passion for it, that passion will carry you through some pretty dark times.

~tt

[studiomprd]

" "the school insisted we get permits and insurance," "

many, if not most, so! Also many schoolsset a 12 hour max on any student projects!

" Everyone is given a percentage, if a profit is ever produced "

there will never be a profit...

make that: Everyone is given a percentage, if revenue is ever produced

" I look at the script and ask questions "

When considering taking low/no budget work, this is an important point, not because we want to like the story, but because how they answer the questions tells a lot about whether they have a clue...

" find a Shure FP33 "

I have one available for $500

But there will be a lot of more noticeable issues with the finished movie, and its sound, before the choice of equipment is even close to a factor.

" they're saving so much by using a $2500 camera (the Canon 5D), why, there'd be lots of leftover money in the budget for sound. "

but they are buying that toy for themselves, and will own it, so it is really free for the production...

Twisted logic, I know, but there is a lot of irrational thinking going on...

[atheisticmystic]

Copy that, and thanks TT for the encouragement!

Just see if my next job posting isn't appropriate...I'm optimistic!

Best,

Steven

[Michael Miramontes]

Am I being paranoid, or is this one of those "biz"-specific issues where the established pros "cant tell you how to do it, only how NOT to do it".

I'm sure this is the case, however it would be nice to know a range so that we can figure out if we are being fairly compensated or not. I think since we are starting out we are not too sure as to what the standards are yet. We probably won't have an idea until we've done enough gigs or someone offers to pay us more then we expected. It might take a while to understand the range of wages per job type or someone can be so kind as to chime in here and speed us up a bit. Please....