Dan Smith Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 First time poster here. A wonderful board. I love reading all your comments. I searched for something along these lines but couldn't come up with much so here goes. I am a sound designer for a senior student film at my university. The producers were smart to bring me onboard to help out with pre-production and see the process of sound all the way through. I have done some student films, commercials and one feature. I have been lucky enough to shadow some great sound mixers and boom ops. I haven't yet had to work with a multi-cam shoot like these students want to do. They were inspired by the Friday Night Lights TV show. In my searches in the forum I have read some about the production and it was very insightful. This will be a good challenge to learn from. I will be using a SD 552 and 744t for my mixer and recorder. I'll be using a wireless boom. I'll be putting lavs on pretty much everyone. Once I get the storyboards and floorplans I can plan out a little more for the production but I know with this there will be a ton of improv in the movements etc. Any tips for this type of production? I just worried about getting good sound but also having my boom op to worry about and stay out of 2 frames that are constantly on the move. In these type of shoots are the lavs depended on more than the boom and the boom just gets what it can? Should I try to get a 2nd boom op? Sorry to ramble I appreciate any insights in advance. Thank you so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 1st. Why wireless boom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 1st. Why wireless boom? Why Not I never work with a hardwired boom ever anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Hi, Dan, welcome... Sound Designer is a much different, separate job from Production Sound Mixer. A few things jump out at me: " but I know with this there will be a ton of improv in the movements etc. " which isn't necessarily how it works on a proper production, and " a senior student film at my university " In another recent thread (Set etiquette and protocol) I have touched on the often poor way sets and shoots are run by beginners, including students. Just as you mention "storyboards", , a blocking rehearsal before the shots are setup (while the actors are in hair-makeup-wardrobe) is important, and that is where the actions are pretty much set. Then stand-ins (aka 2nd team) take the place of the actors (1st team) while the DP supervises the setup, and the PSM and boomer make certain they know what is going on!) Setting up properly for multiple cameras is not easy, and certainly not easier or faster than setting up for a single camera; Numerous threads on jwsound frequently repeat the disadvantages for sound of this, especially as practiced by noobies... A sound utility/2nd boomer would be an excellent, valuable addition to your production sound crew, maybe even essential! As Sound Designer, insure adequate testing and confirmation of your complete workflow! " 1st. Why wireless boom? " no cables! Edited October 26, 2011 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Wireless aren't compressed the signal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) " Wireless aren't compressed " some are, some aren't, and in the USA (and elsewhere) they are required to have circuits to restrict modulation to 100% or lower (often limiters). so ?? If the system is properly set up, and sounds good, then why not?? Many of us are routinely using wireless booms on all sorts of major productions <caution to jw:> and having no problems (including nominations) with the finished products <end alert>. There will be a lot of convenience gained by lack of wiring. On " a senior student film at my university " , especially multi-cam, with good quality wireless equipment, and proper use, I expect there will be a lot of other issues (bg noises, clothing rustles, etc. etc. etc.) that will be of greater concern than any companding (if present) or limiting will cause. Edited October 26, 2011 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 If he has circuits to restrict modulation, ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Sounds as if you will have 1 radio boom n 4 radio mics work with at any one time. I would put the boom on track 1 n the radios on track 2 to work with later. If it is a quite location and you have good boom ops, 2 boomers w shotgun mics can do wonders. Good luck. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Crew beat me too it. Tell the producer, (and this is a general statement) One Boom for each camera. When they ask why, tell them, because cameras CAN point in two different directions. I've done this many times, and it gets the 'thinking cap' on for the producer/director, and they are forced to actually plan for the sound, and NOT treat sound like an afterthought. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Forgive my ignorance, but can you have boom record to L on 552, wire mix to R on 552 and 4 lavs to the 744T? 744T will feed TC to 552, so tracks should sync easily. Answer aside, I think that with limited experience, simpler is better. It's a real skill to place lavs properly and have them sound good. You are in for a lot of post work if you wire everyone all the time. Two booms properly placed might yield better results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Forgive my ignorance, but can you have boom record to L on 552, wire mix to R on 552 and 4 lavs to the 744T? 744T will feed TC to 552, so tracks should sync easily. It's possible, I've thought about doing this if I ever need extra ISO's. 4 x ISO's on the 744, 1 x extra ISO on 552 Left channel, then the mix on 552 Right channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Smith Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thanks everyone for your replies. After reading this and the 5D workflow, I did a quick test of my equipment today just to flesh out the signal flow and make sure everything was going as expected. Audio levels into the 5D were a little hot so I'll adjust those settings and I should be good to go. I'll be sending a mix to each one of the cameras for sync purposes in post. I'll be using the 744t as the master recorder with the 552 receiving timecode/transport from it. Most of the time I'll be using a boom with 2 lavs. So I'll be sending the iso tracks to the 744t along with a a mix and I'll probably split the lavs and boom onto the 2 channels of the 552 since I got them. But there are some shots that may call for a 2nd boom or another lav. Thanks to your suggestions I looked into how I can quickly change my settings to allow for up to 6 iso tracks, though I highly doubt I'll ever need them. Also per your advice I'll have a sound utility to help out so if I ever do need a 2nd boom or if the wireless boom is acting up they can tend to that and I can keep my perch at my sound cart. With a setup like this I've decided that I'll be filling the sound mixer role on set. I know what I will want and need as far as quality, coverage, sound reports etc in post, that I'm just going to do it myself. Plus, I worked with enough other students in post that I feel more comfortable spreading out that work than I do having someone else to production sound. I forgot to mention that we will start shooting a week from Friday and I'll be sure to keep you all updated with how it goes. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 You referred to "Friday Night Lights", and the success of this show had a lot to do with David Boyd, a brilliant Director/DP, who formed the basic working style of the show. David has a lot of respect for sound, and the way he set up the shooting style reflects that. With two or three cameras and two boom ops, the show would shoot wide masters on two cameras simultaneously while the booms played overhead, getting basic tracks and learning the rhythms. Successive rounds took all cameras together going tighter, with the booms much closer and the ops (both camera and sound) more familiar with the exchanges. By the close up round everyone got to play their A game, as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 You referred to "Friday Night Lights", and the success of this show had a lot to do with David Boyd, a brilliant Director/DP, who formed the basic working style of the show. David has a lot of respect for sound, and the way he set up the shooting style reflects that. With two or three cameras and two boom ops, the show would shoot wide masters on two cameras simultaneously while the booms played overhead, getting basic tracks and learning the rhythms. Successive rounds took all cameras together going tighter, with the booms much closer and the ops (both camera and sound) more familiar with the exchanges. By the close up round everyone got to play their A game, as it were. Interesting fact to know. I don't know David Boyd but he is a smart man IMO. Walter Hill shot this style way back when I had the pleasure of working with him. It is a style that makes sense when trying to wring the most out of a shooting day on a tight schedule. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Why Not I never work with a hardwired boom ever anymore. For yourself (while bagging), or for a boom op? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Smith Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 You referred to "Friday Night Lights", and the success of this show had a lot to do with David Boyd, a brilliant Director/DP, who formed the basic working style of the show... Awesome. That's very enlightening. I'd seen some behind the scenes footage from the show and always wondered how it would work out so well. This makes it seem much more doable. Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Dan, here's some footage of behind the scenes from 'The Lincoln Lawyer'. This whole film was shot with nearly all 2 cam shoots, and 2 booms. http://www.movieweb.com/movie/the-lincoln-lawyer/behind-the-scenes-footage-part-1 Just an interesting view from the set.. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 " a brilliant Director/DP, who formed the basic working style of the show" you bet! being a a "brilliant DP" takes a whole lot more than just knowing lighting, it requires understand the entire process and the teamwork that is required. sadly, too many, way too many, of today's so-called DP's thing that all it take is to have the latest greatest camcorder, and even then they often don't read the manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Wireless boom for me 98% of the time.... unless on a small set, in a fixed spot.... then it's about convenience of not having a battery to deal with on the radio unit..... Less is more... I see the "teamwork gig about 10% of the time... It's a free for all the other 90% it seems... As for the DPs reading the manual, yeah right, that's someone else's problem... many of the 1st's don't even know the gear these days... So many are fresh from the film world and are on the heels of the catch up game... on 20 cameras!!! LOL... I have actually been on the phone with the camera house (team player) to help figure out their problems with set up... It's literally comical at times... and these aren't mom and pop shows..... Go figure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Smith Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Thanks everyone for the continued advice and resources. Wonderful stuff. Here is a specific question for you... I'll be using an SD MM-1 for the boom op to run his mic into and then out to the transmitter. On the MM-1 there is the gain for the pre. I am wondering how to effectively use the unit yet still retain the most flexibility possible as far as gain control/staging. Because if I were to use a wired boom, I would be controlling all of the gain on my 552. Am I assuming correct that I might have the boom op or sound utility watch the MM1 during rehearsals making sure there's no limiting going on (or very little if it were a dynamic scene perhaps). Then it would come into the mixer and out the direct out to the recorder. So the only gain I would have control over would be what is going to the board mix? Is this correct? I assume the boom ops aren't doing very much adjustments on the fly. The shoots that I have been on have just used a phantom power supply straight into a transmitter, and I would get my headphone feed from a comtek. Thus, I've never had to worry about gain and I want to make sure the gain staging is correct between the MM-1 and the 552. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I addressed the issue of setting up an MM-1/transmitter rig in a previous thread about radio booms. Here is a link to that page: Briefly, the dynamic range in the system is sufficiently large that there is no reason to be making on-the-fly adjustments with the MM-1 preamp. Once you've calibrated one component to the other, you can pretty much leave it set and forget it in regular use. You might want to go up one notch for a whispered scene and come down one notch for a screaming match but otherwise no changes are needed. You would, of course, continue to make subtle changes to your levels at the mixer to keep a stable recorded signal. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Smith Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I addressed the issue of setting up an MM-1/transmitter rig in a previous thread about radio booms. Thanks David, sometimes it if difficult finding things through the search function because you have to use at least 4 characters in each word. I appreciate you pointing me in the direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 " have to use at least 4 characters in each word. " yes, it is rather strange... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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