AudioNinja Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Ok, so I get hired to go on a low budget Union commercial job. The PM tells me the equipment rate is only $500.00 , then she proceeds to tell me they have 3 Alexas, I let her know that to provide timecode and audio to all 3 cameras the equipment side of the budget would have to be increased $300.00 more. She declines and says the editors can work with what they get from a dummy slate and that she wants to save the money. I show up , jam sync all 3 cameras ANYWAY. and off we go. the next day I get a call that the editorial post house is extremely upset that 2 of the cameras dont have audio feeds. I reminded her of her choice not to budget for more audio to cameras (wireless hops) and that I went and jammed all three with TC despite her declaration that it was not necessary. Used a TC slate as well. I kinda feel bad for her, and I kinda dont. What do you guys think?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Why do you feel bad for her? Why are you even asking the question? You did what you were paid for and a bit more, you're in the clear..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimPitot Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Did you get all that in writing prior to the shoot? If not she is going to burn you down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 " What do you guys think?? " I think ya' done good... did you perhaps get it in writing from her: " the editors can work with what they get from a dummy slate and that she wants to save the money. " ?? If so, forward that to post, with your apologies! " If not she is going to burn you down. " or at least hang you out to dry, but really, it is her problem...and you'll remember in the future: CYA They had the money for the three Alexa's, and all that goes with them, so she was... <all together> tripping over dollars to pick up a dime... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimPitot Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 "three Alexa's" jumped out at me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioNinja Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I do have it in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Honestly, post isn't going to hire you on the next job. That producer will. They can bitch all they want, and the result will be (maybe) that the producer will pay the extra next time. They probably budgeted based on camera audio. Not your fault. Why do you feel sorry for her? She's their boss too. If you forward your "proof" to post in order to make you look better, you risk burning a bridge. I would simply reply, "Sorry about that. The extra gear wasn't budgeted. How was the sound?" Then contact the producer and ask if she was contacted by post. Then tell her that they contacted you and were upset, and you hope that their anger will not hurt your reputation with her. And ask her, "How was the sound?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioNinja Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I never spoke with post. only a production manager who handled my hiring for this company ( who I work on big Union commercials all the time) the EP knows me and my work, the sound was flawless (the actors costumes allowed for exposed wires) it was a breeze for the sound dept. I KNOW the audio rocks. its this rookie PM that I was feelin a little bad for because she made an assumption about post and I guess they tore into her (because we all know they are lazy fucks) . thanks for the feedback here though, makes me feel alot better. In the end as long as the audio sounds good I could care less what the editors say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I'm sure the sound was great. That's the point of asking the question. You did your job. Don't feel bad for her. She'll learn. That's how we get better at our jobs. Best, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefilosa Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I'm not sure what market you are in, but you are my HERO for today, and those in your market should be thanking you. As well, ALL others should take notice - don't give it away..... Too many people in our audio world think contrary - contrary to good business sense, contrary to "return on investment", contrary to our craft. They think that, to do a "good job" by giving away 3000+ dollars of investment, they should just roll over with the hopes that they will "remember and call again" .... You know what they'll remember ? We can get this all for FREE. And if the sun and the moon align and you happen to be available on that future prospect, well "why does this cost more $$ NOW??" That crap happens a lot around my town, and I am sick and tired of it. FWIW - THIS kind of post is the real true value, for me, in a newsgroup like this - promoting good business practice to a hopefully unified defacto national union of sound people that treat the craft like a business. I wish there were more posts like this one - The Business of Sound - how to negotiate, how to get respect, prompt payment, deal memos - even in e-form.... I love you man - keep up the good work, because you just did a great job..... for your client (they had TC - just what they paid for) and for the industry. Michael Filosa, CAS Atlanta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Hey Michael, I couldn't agree more. This discussion would fit in well w "Cutting the Grass" or whatever it is called. Same discussion more or less. As for the OPer Reza, you did do the right thing and were honest in you're dealings w all. Hopefully the PM in question will learn from this episode. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Nice job..... They don't NEED audio.... It helps, but not a NEED.. lazy bastards....... They had code.... On all the first versions of the Alexa we only used slates, this went on for some time... treated them like film cameras... Never heard a word from anyone.... for like 30 shows on those things pre Audio versions...some folks still don't send audio.... You did all the right things.... high five... Robert, per your post, if you ask how the sound was, they'll say.. "I never heard of any problems, so i guess it was OK.." The usual response from people who do not do sound and go through some of the crap we do to deliver quality product under the circumstances we are sometimes placed in to fight to arrive at that quality product... Hope that made sense... One more thing, I always ask whomever to simply write the "needs" in an email.... I have too much going on to remember ..... This way I have it in writing... rates, technical needs and ANY financial dealings.... especially the latter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 No reason to feel bad. She made the conscious decision to save a few bucks on the production and it clearly bit her in the ass. I also recommend a friendly chat with the producer, if nothing else just to gauge his/her thoughts on the situation. I have been on numerous shoots where I repeatedly told production they will save a LOT of money by renting my timecode slate, having audio go to camera, and take the time to properly slate each take. But, they're pinching pennies in vain and it bites them. I have also had numerous producers and directors come to me afterword and specifically tell me they should have listened to me in the first place. Crazy, huh? The sound guy actually knows about sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 " (because we all know they are lazy fucks) " eh?? that is a bad attitude to have, and not generally true. Those folks have their problems, pressures, and deadlines to deal with, as well as budget issues from the same producers, still tripping over dollars in post to pick up dimes. " I KNOW the audio rocks " your humility is showing... as Robert said: " the point of asking the question. (is, reminding her that) You did your job. " then " they'll say.. "I never heard of any problems, so i guess it was OK.." " " In the end as long as the audio sounds good I could care less what the editors say. " there is that bad 'tude again, and I have had post sound folks prove influential in further employment opportunities! and, BTW, the phrase is " I couldn't care less" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelo Waldron Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 10 to 1 they loop that "rockin' audio" anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Tuffrey Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 I think Senators got a point about attitude. Things happen that are frustrating for us sometimes but it's how you deal with it that really counts. Turning a negative into a positive and not turning their negative into your negative... .. unless of course you are developing film in which case don't know. Im a video guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 " (because we all know they are lazy fucks) " eh?? that is a bad attitude to have, and not generally true. Those folks have their problems, pressures, and deadlines to deal with, as well as budget issues from the same producers, still tripping over dollars in post to pick up dimes. " I KNOW the audio rocks " your humility is showing... as Robert said: " the point of asking the question. (is, reminding her that) You did your job. " then " they'll say.. "I never heard of any problems, so i guess it was OK.." " " In the end as long as the audio sounds good I could care less what the editors say. " there is that bad 'tude again, and I have had post sound folks prove influential in further employment opportunities! and, BTW, the phrase is " I couldn't care less" Getting "extremely upset" over no audio on a video shoot and bitching to production is a bad attitude... I always try to have that conversation first, so we are all on the same page... not always possible, but I try... Want one out of me, do that on a show I am on... With my phone number and notes saying "Questions, call me first" on reports, Media cases and enclosures, many of the post persons choose to rattle the cages of unknowing production personal, creating much bigger problems, rather than simply calling me and asking a question directly. Almost 99% of those cases have been due to errors in their post chain, or obvious situations they "really should of figured out... having nothing to do with my audio.. Things like the camera dept. kept turning the camera on and off and not slating... who got the call ? production, who got the next call... you guessed it... me... from production.. "why were there no slates on that stuff?.. Really... Or, not slating at all, audio to camera by the way.. who gets the call... you guessed it... and all prompted by post, like it's my problem... I did however have no fewer than 6 conversations with the camera guys to no avail... this is like a broken record. Why did I have 6 conversations, because I KNEW I would get the call.. So, when an individual in post whines about a lack of audio on a shoot where the mixer was told NOT to record it, and fails to ask instead of being "extremely upset" and causes a too do.... I would most certainly call that one individual a Lazy Bastard.... Lack of decorum on their part is no excuse for "problems, pressures and deadlines". We ALL have those.... Shit i am married, I have those everyday... Get a grip, and ask in a professional manner, maybe there is a reason things went down that way, don't just open the bitch out floodgates... Very nice till provoked.... normally I still like you Mike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 I bet some dumbass assistant editor just gets confused when they don't have audio on all 3 camera sources. Trust me, that technique works totally fine. To me, I think running scratch track audio to just one camera is fine -- but I feel safer if all of them get it. But they gots to pay. BTW, I think a full-blown single Alexa package goes for about $1500 a day (minimum), when I last checked. A couple hundred bucks would've easily covered a wireless feed for everybody. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 " Getting "extremely upset" over no audio on a video shoot and bitching to production is a bad attitude " yes, of course it is, but that is their bad attitude. (and back-stabbing ?) point is "production" should deal with that, and point out that the spec's were met by the PSM. (I know, they lie instead!)... Sure, we get the call, (part of the gig) and remind them ( perhaps by asking: how was the sound?") that we provided everything theat we were hired (and paid) for. Some folks have to deal with dumb-ass bosses, we get to deal with dumb-ass clients! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 It's strange how some producers demand a camera hop for every camera... and then there are crews that don't want anything connected to their cameras. I've been running into the latter more and more. (The Senator will remember the recent one...) --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted November 6, 2011 Report Share Posted November 6, 2011 Nothing pisses me off more when booking a job than a PM who thinks they can discuss with me what they need for a shoot. I want it in writing from the post supervisor first. PM's have no business discussing technical details period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) " Nothing pisses me off more than ... " nothing ?? " PM's have no business discussing technical details " often, I'd agree, but sometimes I've gotten really good info from them. Edited November 7, 2011 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyOne Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 PM's have no business discussing technical details period. Dangerous assumption! Some are sharp as tacks, and make it their business to really know everything about everything - how else can they be sure they are really saving money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioNinja Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 the story has a decent ending. got a call from the producer, explained the PM's decisions, it was brushed aside like it was nothing, She said the sound came out great, (no looping) , the editors synced everything they needed via timecode despite their initial bitch and moan routine(and then she thanked me for providing timecode they didn't pay for) , and offered me another Union commercial spot for next month at the correct rates. In the end I never showed any negativity (to production) , kept my mouth shut and waited for the smoke to clear. Worked in this case to my benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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