Jeff Babb Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Several years ago I shot a spec tv pilot that was "picked up" (the production paid to have it aired in Europe (BSkyB)). One of producers, who was also the writer got all snippy about something and to prove his point exclaimed that he owned the copyright to the show. My research at the time lead me to find that, until I was paid (work for hire), I retained the copyright to the images and the sound mixer retained the copyright to the audio recording. This issue has come up again. Now my audio recording are being used on a low budget feature film and I have yet to be paid as agreed to in the deal memo. The producers are saying they're out of money and payment will come when/if they ever get any money. The grip house is preparing to place a lien on the movie. SAG may be getting involved as well. Now I'm having trouble finding the same copyright info on the .gov site. Last time my search took me straight there and now I'm finding related but not specific info. I'll continue searching. Does anyone have any info regarding copyright readily available? Thanks Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 You lost me at Viva la runaway productions...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Talk to a lawyer. Several years ago I shot a spec tv pilot that was "picked up" (the production paid to have it aired in Europe (BSkyB)). One of producers, who was also the writer got all snippy about something and to prove his point exclaimed that he owned the copyright to the show. My research at the time lead me to find that, until I was paid (work for hire), I retained the copyright to the images and the sound mixer retained the copyright to the audio recording. This issue has come up again. Now my audio recording are being used on a low budget feature film and I have yet to be paid as agreed to in the deal memo. The producers are saying they're out of money and payment will come when/if they ever get any money. The grip house is preparing to place a lien on the movie. SAG may be getting involved as well. Now I'm having trouble finding the same copyright info on the .gov site. Last time my search took me straight there and now I'm finding related but not specific info. I'll continue searching. Does anyone have any info regarding copyright readily available? Thanks Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Owning the copyright and having a mechanic's lien on work you've done are different things. If you want a real opinion you have to get a lawyer. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 So sorry Jeff, Another reason why I don't ever turn over audio files if I have any doubt over getting paid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morantzsound Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Took over a low budget union movie many many years ago (6 or 7 yrs ago). Rumors were going around that they were having money troubles, so I held the audio and the Dp held the film (that's how long ago it was) until the end of the show. 5 Days after depositing the checks we turned everything over. The next day they stopped payments on all checks. Given one BS story after another. We got The IA involved and our Local involved all to no avail. Several years later I see it on cable and again a bunch of us call the IA and are assured that they will have to pay and gain eventually told sorry... A year later I got a settlement from an attorney and got 15 cents on the dollar and that was better than most others. So I did write off that I would ever see a penny on it so was surprised to get the money but again have not and will not hopefully ever put myself in that position again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted November 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Owning the copyright and having a mechanic's lien on work you've done are different things. If you want a real opinion you have to get a lawyer. phil p The grip house is pursuing a mechanic's lien. As the entity that recorded the audio, I have copyright claims as opposed to the grip house that does not. As part of my research I am looking through various sources to have my ducks in a row before I contact an attorney. As this sight is a wealth of knowledge (and opinion), and some of you may have been through this before, I ask my question here. Seeking the advice of an attorney is similar to having your car painted at MAACO. If you've already sanded it and removed the chrome trim - the paint job is less expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted November 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 You lost me at Viva la runaway productions...... A topic for a different thread. One I'm happy to discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 A topic for a different thread. One I'm happy to discuss. I'm only funnin Jeff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 " "picked up" (the production paid to have it aired " that is not "picked up" " The producers are saying they're out of money and payment will come when/if they ever get any money. The grip house is preparing to place a lien on the movie. SAG may be getting involved as well. " SAG will also file a lein (if they had a contract). Join that party ASAP. that is different, and separate from any copyright issues, which become mute if and when they pay you, or active if they do not pay you and somehow get $$ for the material... " The next day they stopped payments on all checks. " That would have been rental/kit checks, as your wages were paid on a payroll, right ?? They should have been, that is a Labor department -your state government- thing!! join that party, too. and beware your own research, it could be faulty, and other advice suspect, as well. the one best advice you have already received: contact an attorney you definitely want to join that party! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 The grip house is pursuing a mechanic's lien. As the entity that recorded the audio, I have copyright claims as opposed to the grip house that does not. As part of my research I am looking through various sources to have my ducks in a row before I contact an attorney. As this sight is a wealth of knowledge (and opinion), and some of you may have been through this before, I ask my question here. Seeking the advice of an attorney is similar to having your car painted at MAACO. If you've already sanded it and removed the chrome trim - the paint job is less expensive. You may have some copyright entitlement re your work but they will probably try to prove that you were working for hire with no expectation or offer of ownership. I'd say that your copyright claim will be hard enough to prove and enforce that you might have better luck trying to get paid for the work they actually agreed to hire you for. There's no question they owe you for that. The copyright thing might take a lot longer to pursue and require more legal advice. I have no illusions or assumptions about my car-sanding etc skills so I'd leave that to people who do that sort of work all the time! phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 BASTARDS. I hate stories like these. Jeff, you should try to get in touch with the other crewmembers who were ripped off and go in together on a single attorney. This will minimize the expenses, and you can split whatever you ultimately get. I know of a couple of cases where Complete Post in Hollywood wound up owning a couple of indie films and documentaries because of liens on upaid bills. They eventually got rid of them through auctions, but it was still quite a mess than dragged on for years. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 It will depend on what has been stipulated in the contract between both parties. Have you signed a contract saying this is a work for hire? Did that contract stipulate pay rate? If they didn't pay what was stipulated in the contract then that is a breach of contract and the contract can't be enforced on their end. At least that's how I understand it. Have you been here? http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf There is a phone number at the end of this page that you can call and ask for clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Yes sink money into a lawyers decision if you will. My guess is that if you have been paid for handing in recordings then you have completed your contract to the owner. Do they now own the copyright and do you still own the mechanical copyright? Fascinating! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted November 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 That's the whole point. I haven't received my final check or kit fee. My contract says I accept a certain amount of money. I also agree that I do not own the files. Until line one of the contract is fulfilled (i.e. I get paid) line 23 of the contract (i.e. they get the copyright) doesn't happen. A contract runs two ways. Until I get paid the contract is not complete. Once I'm paid, I don't care what they do with the audio. I did see that article. I don't think that number will get me a clarification only a way to order forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 OK, Jeff, you still own the copyright. sooo?? you still need a lawyer... but the lein path will probably be faster, cheaper, easier, and more effective, without affecting the copyright issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolo72 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I've had to hold rushes until payment twice this year. By payment i mean fully cleared funds in my bank account. Any sniff of a dodgy producer/production manager and i'm on autopilot. I think this is one area where we have an advantage over other departments because frequently the DIT takes picture rushes throughout the day whereas we generally deliver after the shoot. As i understand it, the recordist owns the recording rights by default until contractually signed over to who ever else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I did a show once when the money stopped flowing. The G & E crew stopped work eventually until the accountant showed up with enough cash to show good faith. I, being owed a great deal more, and the DIT, held onto some key footage and audio recordings until we were confident we were going to be paid. The media wrangler was delivered empty disks and cards, and kept it to himself. Nobody was watching dailies or editing at this point. Fortunately some of the money was delivered (in cash) and I was confident enough to deliver the audio. The producers were never aware of my hold-out. My boom guy and I thought hard about the decision to hold back the audio. We had committed a great deal of time and effort to the project. We had decided we would only turn the footage over to the director personally, if he asked. It never came to that. The only other time I was stiffed was as a boom op. The mixer was friends with Transpo, who muscled money out of the wealthy director (his producers/friends decided they would not cover over budget expenses). It took weeks, and a weird cash exchange in a 7-11 parking lot. Much of the crew was never paid. Movie available on DVD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BVS Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I did some research into this a while back here in NZ...so may be specific to our country only, but in general if you don't have a contract with the production company that signs over all copyright to them, then you own the copyright on the material you recorded as the creative artist. I can think of so many jobs that fall into this category.... My reference was Media Law in New Zealand. BVS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 That sounds a bit vague... So a recordist owns a copyright on material s/he recorded, but what about the performer who was recorded performing, or the writer who wrote it, or even the director who directed the performance, or the producer who paid for it.. ?? That last one is the important one, getting the payment from whoever did the hiring. One last time: a mechanics lien is the clear and comparatively simpler solution toward getting paid. Once there is a lien, filed the whole issue of copyright becomes moot, as their is a claim recorded against the work in question that actually needs to be settled before copyright comes into question. Here on jwsound we always encourage hiring professionals to handle sound; this situation requires a different professional! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Babb Posted November 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 The grip house has included me and the others in the crew as a party to the lien. So that avenue is being pursued. But it may not hurt to remind the producer that a copyright challenge may lie ahead as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 " it may not hurt to remind the producer that a copyright challenge may lie ahead as well. " ... and the best way to do that is with a lawyer letter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 There are 2 things I always had (my lawyer friend) include in letters to (non-paying entities)... and it helped that the letters were on Preston Gates & Ellis letterhead (he's since moved on to another firm), but I'm sure they'd be just as effective on any letterhead: 1. any contract -- in order for it to hold water, has to be mutually beneficial. This is perhaps the most key element in the equation. 2. It will never get less expensive for them to solve the matter than right now, by fulfilling their end of the deal (ie: paying me)... it is only going to cost them more $ to prolong the inevitable. I've successfully used this tactic several times now, and you'd be amazed how quickly they come around. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 A soundie's entitlement to the copyright of recordings made in a situation where the accepted industry expectation is that it is work for hire seems like it would be hard to make stick. There is also the matter of who owns the CONTENT of the recordings, ie the script, and who owns the PERFORMANCE you recorded as well. Trying to make a copyright claim on a film you recorded seems a little like a construction worked claiming part-ownership of a building he worked on in a pay dispute. There are a lot of other parties involved. The mechanic's lien was invented for this sort of situation, and seems like it would be easier and faster to get a favorable judgement that way. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 It's usually spelled out in the deal memo... you are on a work for hire basis, and they do own the content insofaras you couldn't legally go out and sell it, or release it to the public... if however, they haven't fulfilled their end if the bargain, you have every right to sit on those files until you get paid, and those actual physical files are your property until you're paid for them as stipulated in your contract. IP differs from (the construction scenario Phil described) in that there is a distinct difference between a physical copy of a work, an original recording of a work, and the work itself. It's a huge can of worms, but... in this case, it's the physical recording that is in question... not the content thereof... and you made the recording -- for them -- under contract. If the contract hasn't been upheld by them, you have every right to hold those files until they honor their end of it. If they already have the files (and you have that much less "leverage" (God, I hate that word) against them) then the lien is really the only other recourse. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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