rates... again...

[Jack Norflus]

he thanked me for my time and said good bye.

then, a younger up and coming mixer calls me up about an hour later asking how much i'd rent him my dr680 and some g2's for...

What I have found is it doesn't matter what they are asking for or whatever they want to pay - people will be lining up for the job.

I've turned down a job on a long term doc a while back because of rate - a week into production I got a desperate call from the producer looking to hire me now for my rate. I guess the person they hired didn't work out. I turned them down.

[Michael Miramontes]

Has anyone actually ever worked on a project like this and had it turn out to be something good? I'm assuming, based on my experience, that most of these projects never make it farther then a facebook link. If they don't have money for production, then chances are they won't be able to market the project either.

[taylormadeaudio]

One tactic that came to my mind kind of depends on how big your local sound community is, and how tight you are with the other mixers in the area, but say you know 3 other mixers in your area... they call you and it falls through due to the rate thing... they call your friend (mixer a)... to whom you just spoke about the gig... (s)he says, "didn't you already speak with (your name) about this job?... I don't want to take work away from him/her... I can only do it for the same rate (s)he was asking, and only if (s)he's cool with that... you should hire him/her, you're getting a great mixer at a reasonable rate"

... and so on... this obviously requires a bit of solidarity between us on a local level, and it might be tempting for some newer mixers out there to see it as an opportunity to undercut and establish new clients, but if we all adhered to this type of networking and mutual respect, I bet the rates would come back up in no time.

I don't know, something to consider. Personally, I would not take a job if I knew it was only because they tried to low-ball my friend and (s)he turned it down.

~tt

[taylormadeaudio]

i think i know who this is...

if its the same people i dealt with, they did come up on price to a reasonable rate, and then i stuck them with a very high over 12 hour hourly rate. because, "we never go over 12 hours". yeah… i was thinking that too on our 15th hour the 2nd day...

Michael,

You're probably right. It's a small world after all, yes?

I visited your website, BTW... pretty cool. I liked the thread on TC to smartphone. So many cool new toys out there. I just hope you were charging them for it -- while it's not a full-blown TC slate, it's certainly serving that purpose, and we should try to avoid giving that kind of stuff away.

Our world is changing rapidly -- in some ways, to our advantage, in other ways, not so much... anything we can do to maintain any little bit of bargaining power we have over producers is the only way we'll be able to keep the standards up. Otherwise, we'll all be looking for work on Craigslist.

~tt

[studiomprd]

" When I go on a gig, I just naturally do my best. "

...and when I get onto one of those POS shoots, where they haven't got a plan, and they are sticking to it, I get grumpy trying to do a professional good job; As I learned this many years back, I don't even consider the alleged gig.

" do the old "family emergency" 2 days before shooting "

my emergencies come up 2 hours before shooting, but as they will already be running way behind schedule, that gives them 5-6 hours!

" . If they don't have money for production, "

... they won't have the money to finish (post) the project

[johnpaul215]

Has anyone actually ever worked on a project like this and had it turn out to be something good? I'm assuming, based on my experience, that most of these projects never make it farther then a facebook link. If they don't have money for production, then chances are they won't be able to market the project either.

I've done my share of low budget nightmare features. The positives were: good learning experience where I learned to think on the fly because everything was a giant unpredictable mess. I was fortunate to be in it with some awesome crew members. While I would never wish this hell on anyone, I have gotten a lot of jobs because the other crew members recommended me in the future. When I saw crew members, I mean below the line crew that you are in the trenches with. Not those producers that always promise to take care of you "on the next one".

Not dissing legitimate producers, but I am talking about the ones that will probably never make another film....

[mikewest]

Great post guys especially Richard - that's the truth.

Hate the one figure offers.

Had to define to a UPM recently that the rate(s) are labour/equipment/consumables/vehicle

and not "everyone is getting $100 per day".

Done hi and low budget stuff and the lower it gets the harder it is!

mike

[studiomprd]

" the lower it gets the harder it is! "

That is for sure...

and not just harder on the discount production sound mixer, but also harder on the discount gear too...

another reason not to cut the grass.

[mikewest]

The bigger the budget

The easier the job

The better the lunch

The better the hotel

The prettier the chicks (not PC I know, but the truth!)

mike

[mikewest]

Gee no comments!

I got away with it.

mike

[Olle Sjostrom]

Yeah everyone got busy looking for bigger budget jobs!

[John Blankenship]

Yeah everyone got busy looking for bigger budget jobs!

...and the prettier chicks.

[Rich Van Dyke]

I'm not trying to start a controversy but I thought I might point something out to you.

You stated: "My usual rate with (Low Ball, Ent.)....which is $500 a day, plus $300 for kit rental, and I often throw in the wireless camera hops and ComTeks for free......."

You're actually telling them that you give them equipment for free, and then use that "free" equipment as a bargaining piece.

You stated: "I can go to $550 total for the day, but that will be bare bones - no wireless, no ComTeks only a mixer with a boom mic and hardwired straight to camera."

From what I gathered from your original posting, you've worked with this company before, and you're upset that each time a "new" Producer comes on you feel like you have to renegotiate your "deal."

It seems to me, that you've already established with (low ball ent.), your way of working. Which is to get as good a rate as you can, and then throw in everything else that they don't pay for. So the out going Producer tells the "new" Producer, "Hey, we've got this great guy and he throws in all kinds of extra gear, that you don't have to pay for!"

So you get upset when the "new" Producer calls and tells you they have less money than the last time you worked for them. It seems to me that the Producers are trying to see how much "free gear" they can get out of you. If you present yourself as someone who "gives away" gear for free, why should you be upset when a Producer calls and tries to get you to include even more free stuff?

Finally, and again I'm only trying to point out some things here, the items that you tell them you "won't be working with...." are the items that you usually include for free, wireless hops and Com Teks.

Once you establish yourself as the guy who throws in gear for free, it's harder and harder to charge for it at a later date, because you've been giving it to them for free for so long.

Good Luck to you,

Rich Van Dyke

[taylormadeaudio]

I'm not trying to start a controversy but I thought I might point something out to you.

You stated: "My usual rate with (Low Ball, Ent.)....which is $500 a day, plus $300 for kit rental, and I often throw in the wireless camera hops and ComTeks for free......."

You're actually telling them that you give them equipment for free, and then use that "free" equipment as a bargaining piece.

You stated: "I can go to $550 total for the day, but that will be bare bones - no wireless, no ComTeks only a mixer with a boom mic and hardwired straight to camera."

From what I gathered from your original posting, you've worked with this company before, and you're upset that each time a "new" Producer comes on you feel like you have to renegotiate your "deal."

It seems to me, that you've already established with (low ball ent.), your way of working. Which is to get as good a rate as you can, and then throw in everything else that they don't pay for. So the out going Producer tells the "new" Producer, "Hey, we've got this great guy and he throws in all kinds of extra gear, that you don't have to pay for!"

So you get upset when the "new" Producer calls and tells you they have less money than the last time you worked for them. It seems to me that the Producers are trying to see how much "free gear" they can get out of you. If you present yourself as someone who "gives away" gear for free, why should you be upset when a Producer calls and tries to get you to include even more free stuff?

Finally, and again I'm only trying to point out some things here, the items that you tell them you "won't be working with...." are the items that you usually include for free, wireless hops and Com Teks.

Once you establish yourself as the guy who throws in gear for free, it's harder and harder to charge for it at a later date, because you've been giving it to them for free for so long.

Good Luck to you,

Rich Van Dyke

Rich,

Thanks for pointing that out. I understand what you're saying... I think what I was trying to convey to this producer might have been misunderstood. The point I was trying to make in the eMail to the producer was that I've been generous (perhaps to a fault) with them, and that even at the higher rate we had already established, I was including items I would normally charge more for. I don't think I ever established myself as "the guy who throws in gear for free"... so much as the guy who provided an incredible sound package for them at a really good rate. I wasn't trying to change anything. I would have been content to provide them with the same deal they got previously. In that case, I prefered to look at the camera hops and Comteks as incentive -- a loss leader, if you will. My point was that they've already gotten the best deal out of me I can swing -- and it was a good deal. She wanted the same gear at a lower rate -- significantly lower. I think I'm entitled to a little resentment here. In telling her what I could offer for $550/day, I was basically drawing a line -- one that probably cost me the job, as well as possible future work with them -- but I know, it's probably for the best -- at least I'm not contributing to the diminishing of our kit rentals, right?

I suppose on those earlier jobs I did with them, I could have played hardball right out of the gate -- no camera hops, no Comteks... 2 wireless lavs and a boom for $800 total... I'm pretty sure they would not have called me back -- much like they're not calling me back now. Did I need the work then? Yes. Do I need the work now? Yes. Am I still learning how to haggle with producers when it comes to getting a job and getting a decent rate for it? Yes, in many cases -- it's not always as black and white as we'd like it to be.

I've had some really good years, and then some not so good years -- this year happens to fall more towards the latter. When you're faced with unexpected medical bills, renters violating your lease agreement and leaving you with an unexpected additional mortgage to pay, several lucrative projects in a row falling out from under you at the last minute, and a state incentive program drying up and leaving you with not a whole lot on the local horizon, I'd be interested to see how you fare.

I don't mean you any disrespect, but please don't pigeonhole me like that. I'm not the guy who gives away gear for free. I'd rather think of myself as the guy who's willing to bend a little to get some very necessary work -- and the guy who until recently, was making a pretty good living pleasing his clients.

~tt

[studiomprd]

" . I think what I was trying to convey to this producer might have been misunderstood. "

If we misunderstood it, then it is likely the producer person did, too.

This is all about cutting the grass... and how to be clever about it.

" still learning how to haggle with producers when it comes to getting a job and getting a decent rate for it? "

That is the job description of a producer, they are the negotiating pro's.

As discussed here and elsewhere: if you package up (extra) gear, then show it as a discount. If you had been doing that all along, you might not be seen as breaking the pattern (as described by Rich), but rather as extending the same great package deals.

[taylormadeaudio]

So, you're saying I should have re-rated all the gear to include the Comteks and camera hops at an even lower price -- still the same total for the kit rental, but nothing offered for free -- ever. Always have a standard itemized rental cost (which I do on all my invoices) and then reflect some cost for each piece of gear brought to the table.

I get it.

~tt

[studiomprd]

" but nothing offered for free -- ever. "

that is one way to do it, or just show your package at its rate, then add a line "camera hop ....n/c", and another line " Comtek system w/ 3 RX ....n/c

or even include the typical charge for them, then show it as a "courtesy discount" for that total. That is Marketing! If you insist on giving something away, let them clearly see it, and know it.

[Jimmy Tuffrey]

I'd just name the lowest price you will do it for.

Let them decide if they want you or not.

They have to come to you basically.

I know it's hard if you are desperate for the money but being too keen puts one in a difficult negotiating position.

If they are keen to save money then surely they wont be bothered abut camera hops etc.

Good luck getting some nicer clients..

[taylormadeaudio]

" but nothing offered for free -- ever. "

that is one way to do it, or just show your package at its rate, then add a line "camera hop ....n/c", and another line " Comtek system w/ 3 RX ....n/c

or even include the typical charge for them, then show it as a "courtesy discount" for that total. That is Marketing! If you insist on giving something away, let them clearly see it, and know it.

Mike,

That's exactly what I always did on my invoices for them -- I made it extremely clear that they were getting a hell of a deal. She eMailed me back and raised the rate, BTW. : )

Thanks for your input -- I really value the wisdom that is so readily available here on JWSound.

[taylormadeaudio]

I'd just name the lowest price you will do it for.

Let them decide if they want you or not.

They have to come to you basically.

I know it's hard if you are desperate for the money but being too keen puts one in a difficult negotiating position.

If they are keen to save money then surely they wont be bothered abut camera hops etc.

Good luck getting some nicer clients..

Hey Jimmy,

Thanks for your input. Yeah, it's one of those timing things where I'd love to be in a position to simply turn them down, but it's not just me I'm looking after any more. With family, one has responsibilities that often blur the lines a bit when it comes to making a living. I have a pretty symbiotic relationship with most of my clients. These guys are more in the "if I have nothing else going on right now" category.

I may have a "feature" (using that term lightly these days) ...that starts in a month. Crossing fingers and toes,

~tt

[studiomprd]

" a "feature" (using that term lightly these days) "

whatever they want to call it, as long as they pay decently.

[taylormadeaudio]

I haven't gotten to that point in the process yet, but it sounds like a lucrative, well-funded project. We shall see : )

~tt

[Eric Toline]

Next time you go into a restaurant see if you can get them to comp you on the appetizer, salad & dessert and only charge you for the entree & drinks. Your rate card should be set up just like a menu with services, equipment and expendables as line items with individual prices.

Eric

[taylormadeaudio]

Hi Eric,

Normally, it is... it's just been extremely rough as of late and I find myself in that difficult position (albeit temporary) where I'm forced to 'compromise' my rates a little. When one is faced with the decision to either humbly take what is being offered, and meet his financial obligations, or stick to a hard principle and make nothing, then it becomes a little less cut and dry.

My rates are all listed on my invoices, and I usually get a 'fair market value' for the equipment into which I've so heavily invested when it comes to my gear... every now and then I think we're all forced to compromise a little, yes?

In any case, this is more the exception than the rule... here's to bigger and better jobs in the near future : )

~tt

[johnpaul215]

" but nothing offered for free -- ever. " that is one way to do it, or just show your package at its rate, then add a line "camera hop ....n/c", and another line " Comtek system w/ 3 RX ....n/c or even include the typical charge for them, then show it as a "courtesy discount" for that total. That is Marketing! If you insist on giving something away, let them clearly see it, and know it.

If you do compromise on rate, it is smart to somehow designate it as a "discount" or "courtesy discount" to imply that deal is not forever. Otherwise that invoice becomes your menu of prices. You may think you are giving them a discount to get in the door, but unless that is explicitly understood, and documented, by both sides.... you will just become the low budget sound person. Heck, you are also making it seem like a 788 + 6 wireless mics + 10 comteks + camera hops should only cost $125 for the day. Eventually some noob production person may see that as their first sound invoice and think it's standard.

We have enough problems explaining that a Sound Devices recorder for a 5D job is worth more than a boom pole plugged straight in to a Zoom H4n. Once some traveling job gets a sound person to bill appropriately for that setup, the desk jockeys think that's a baseline kit fee. Same people that think a 5D means a cheap camera, so sound should be proportionally cheaper (when the opposite is true). I somehow avoided that "discussion" until about a month ago. ugh. headache.