PhilMacdonald Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hi all, I am new to the forums and was recommended to check it out by a friend in the industry. I am based in the UK and am looking to branch out as a freelance sound recordist. I have recently completed a 2 year course in audio engineering and production and want to explore all things sound however have a particular interest in location sound. I have some experience of this working under an experienced sound recordist for the BBC and this only inspired me more. I am looking to setting up my own kit and would really welcome any advice any of you could offer on this. I have a budget really of around £3500 max but would like to keep it to around £3000 if possible so I can eat and all that. I am pretty set on the MKH 416 as have some experience with it, love the sound and am on the understanding its an industry staple. With the rycote kit 4 going along with this then this equates to about £1000 in the UK. This then leaves me £2/2.5k to spend on a recorder. I can forsee much of the work I take on to be both short films and Broadcast work and these are where my questions lie.... I would ideally like to look at some sound devices kit but because of budget am perhaps limited in this. I like the concept of the 552 in that it combines the mixer with the recorder but am apprehensive about the 96khz max as would like to do some sfx recording also, at 192khz. I also am going to be maxing out the budget and as such for a while will be limited to booming the 416 so the need for 5 channels is low. Even if I am renting out radio mics for a particular shoot do you feel for the work I have mentioned I would be limited with 2 channels and if necessary would i be able to just rent a mixer for the shoot and mix down into 2 recorded channels, is that how this works? My other main question is regarding timecode. There are 3 versions of the 7 series that are sort of in budget. The 702, 702T and 722. I don't really see the point of the 722 as since the firmware upgrade I am on the understanding I can buy my own firewire device and use that on the 702. Which leaves the question of how much do I need timecode. Is it a precursor to many jobs? am I going to look stupid if I rock up without the ability to record using timecode etc etc. It is an extra 650/700 quid for the timecode version and that could go very nicely towards other gear or boom/bags/cards/batteries or that eating I mentioned about.... Apologies for the long post but would hugely appreciate any advice on my particular situation and value your opinions. Cheers, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Hi, and welcome " setting up my own kit and would really welcome any advice " You are not the first...-- even a couple of our regulars started here with almost the same question! try searching around this site, particularly the "equipment" section, as there have been discussions like this before, and not much has changed, especially the part about: "it depends". there have been others, too... If you find the site search wonky, try Google Where in the UK ?? We have a number of professional production sound (specialty) dealers in the USA, who I refer to as our "usual suspects"... I'm not sure who they would be in your area, but find out and visit them. Our's are always glad to help, and the staff are not on commission, so their advice is not about what is best for them to sell, but rather what would best suit your needs. I haven't typed this in a while but you seem to need a reminder: It isn't about the arrows, it is about the archer. I suspect you need more experience to even be able to figure out what you need before purchasing, and I guess you'll get a lot of suggestions, good ones, to rent kit, until your needs sort themselves out, That said: a good buy on a 416 would never be a bad acquisition! Edited November 9, 2011 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMacdonald Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hey, I have looked a fair amount around the equipment forums for similar threads and found all very interesting and informative. I am fully expecting the rent before you buy suggestions and I know of a few places that offer rental services. I am based just outside of London. I will have to use these facilities for things such as radio mics and other items that even with the investment in gear at this stage will not be able to afford whilst starting out. I am more curious at this stage to know whether or not in general whether 2 channels will be limiting to me and also whether having timecode at the stage of my career that I am at is a necessity. Many of the jobs I have looked at, especially the freelance work want you to have your own kit and from what I can tell on here things sell fairly quickly and fairly well if necessary. Which is why I am leaning towards the 702 or 702T depending on need for timecode and then if and hopefully when the projects I am involved in at a later date become bigger look towards bigger rigs/setups with the potential of selling my 702 if absolutely necessary. I can't however seem to get away from the overall benefits that the 552 can bring in terms of I/O and there is limited information in terms of comparison or reviews on this unit. I feel this is currently where my dilemma lies.... I absolutely agree with your archer analogy and may I say what a lovely analogy but feel I am in a situation where I can buy gear and with the way audio is feel that there isn't really a bad choice, just all about taking the best choice ya know? Cheers, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimPitot Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 There are always 2nd hand 416's around. Try bblist.co.uk, you can usually pick one up + rycote for 6 or 7 hundy. Go p48. I would try get a 552, it's a great mixer and the recorder is a massive plus. Team it up with a sync box and you have a TC recorder. You might not need 5 channels now, but you'll probably grow into it depending on what kind of work you end up getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) " Many of the jobs I have looked at, especially the freelance work want you to have your own kit " usually because they want you to provide it for free, which means you are investing your money in their movie. please see the thread "cutting the grass". The 702T is a terrific piece of gear, but it is a recorder, not a mixer, as are the 744's and 788's, etc. what kind of gigs you want, and what jobs you will actually get hired for may well be different at first; you give me a feeling you are looking at "movies", and shopping for "TV news interviews", but in either case wireless will be needed, so if you plan to rent them, why not also rent the entire package, at a small profit, rather than invest heavily initially. another Senatorium that applies here: in business you do not make money by owning equipment, but rather, by using equipment. Even if you wait a few months of renting rather than buying, you'll be able to pick better stuff; for example Zaxcom NOMAD's will be widely and readily available next year in all configurations and you could start with the smallest version, and upgrade as your needs grow. Another good place to spend money is on all the little stuff, the accessories and do-dad's... and in you budget, you'll need some equipment cases, too... All that "little" stuff adds up very quickly! I've often told students in movie schools that the two best things to buy for the long run are good lights, and good microphones. So if you start with a 416, and add a shock mount, wind protection options (indoors and outdoors) shock mounting, and a good small-medium pole, and some cables, you will be off to a good start. Make friends at your neighborhood (London) "usual suspect", and they will five you breaks on rentals as you acquire your gear, and I think you will be better off in the longer run... and in you budget, you'll need some equipment cases, too... All that stuff adds up very quickly! As to specific models, the choices are many, varied, and rather subjective; just read on jwsound, and you'll see there is no one single right choice. Will you need Time Code (SMPTE/EBU TC) ?? that too depends. and when you get into TC, it is not just the added price on the recorder, but there will be a number of other boxes, cables, accessories, adapters, and slates to consider, those alone could easily exceed your entire budget. Many real professional proper shows use TC, and are willing to pay for it, many folks say they want it, but don't really need it, and some others, even many who I'd suggest ought to use it, will not and Instead they use PluralEyes! There are soooooo many workflows possible. Three channel mixers, for over the shoulder use are not really typical professional grade "movie kit", but more suited to smaller TV interview stuff, usually with a boom and 2 wireless. moving up to the 5 channel mixer with 2 channel recorder (SD-552) is an excellent choice for TV, (add a 702T for 4 channel recording) Reality, and even movie uses... Or NOMAD, or TASCAM, even the expensive SONOSAX... Those low budget movie folks who want you to supply your own kit for free will just have to get by with your 2 recorded tracks, plus whatever you send and they record on their camcorders.. which, BTW, means wireless hops or umbilical cords... Of course, ultimately, you will do exactly what you want to, no matter what the advice, so I'll let some others repeat their past advice, too... Edited November 9, 2011 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 The job will be movie? TV? Documentaries? etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 The previous posts sum it up, what jobs are you expecting to get? On a limited budget that makes a difference to what you should buy first, you'll end up buying everything sooner or later, but prioritising what first is important. There are a few specialist 'Usual Suspects' in the UK, John at Pink Noise and Martyn at Soundkit are both knowledgeable and helpful, and usually have some decent used items in stock. Don't discount used stuff, buy quality kit at the right price and you'll be using it in years to come, buy cheap stuff new and you'll be upgrading before you know it. For used stuff, ebay is always worth a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Yeremian Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I would just like to say that if you are low on money and looking for wireless systems then you really can't go wrong with sennheiser g2/g3's for bang for the buck. You would be amazed at how much you can get done with those little bad boys. You can find great condition used ones for dirt cheap as well. I personally used the G2's my first 2 years with much success, just learn their limitations and they will earn you the money for the top of the line down the road, and then you still have backup's you can then use for wireless scratch track hops or IFB type situations even! -Chase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I did a spreadsheet a while back with my gear and what I actually spent so I could figure out how much to insure it for. I'll post the costs of a basic kit like what you're looking at including the necessary doodads that the Senator was talking about. Note that everything is in USD. USED Wendt X4 Mixer (4 Channels) with Portabrace and Breakaway Cable: $1300 USED FR-2 Non-TC: $850 USED Timecode Card I Received From A Friend: $50 (the installation fee) NEW Portabrace Audio Organizer: $270 NEW Versaflex Harness: $125 NEW Sennheiser 416: $1000 NEW Rycote Softie: $110 NEW K-tek 12 ft Cabled Boom: $450 NEW Rycote Invision Shockmount: $62 (I've since replaced that with the K-Tek shock mount that's about twice the cost as the Invision felt too flimsy for my tastes) NEW Sony 7506 Headphones: $100 NEW Pelican 1620 Case: $200 NEW IDX NP-1 Charger: $380 NEW 2 NP-1 Batteries: $350 NEW Hawk-Woods NP-1 Adaptor: $230 For that, I paid about $5,477, which is about £3,441, and that's without any wireless. I also forgot the cost of all the little cables, but suffice to say, two short XLRs to go from the mixer to recorder, one coiled XLR for the boom, and about $100 worth of bulk cable and connectors for me to build my own XLRs. There are definitely areas I probably could have saved some scratch, like a used Pelican case I'm sure you can find for much less, and you could probably find cheaper boom poles depending on what features you are willing to sacrifice (lightweight, internal cable, shorter length). And if you got a smaller non-TC recorder like a Zoom, that'll save you the cost of the FR-2, the bulky audio organizer, and the NP-1 system to power everything, so if you don't need something like an FR-2 (or a 702T for that matter), that'll save you some dough upfront. For the record, I was doing a lot of one person straight to camera / short narrative and commercial projects when I got that kit. I held off on the recorder for a while, but too many people were using DSLRs, so I decided to splurge. I do not feel limited by having to recording channels. That has never been a problem for me and I haven't gotten complaints from any clients. Obviously though, that depends on the type of jobs you'll be getting, but when you're starting out, I doubt ISOs will be an issue. I hope something in here was helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi Phil. my 2 cents: get a Sounddevices Mixpre D (check out Simon Paine's post on this board, under "small soundbags" I think. one or two Senn. G3s, your 416 and a good set of headphones. Get a Zoom recorder of some flavour (I like the H2) for those DSLR shoots. rent a timecode machine like the 744T etc. when needed. The Mixpre D will get you lots of ins/outs, be a great front end for any recorder and an excellent backup/swiss army knife later.Buy some good cables and a decent boompole. Get gigs, make money. Chris Newton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I would just like to say that if you are low on money and looking for wireless systems then you really can't go wrong with sennheiser g2/g3's for bang for the buck. You would be amazed at how much you can get done with those little bad boys. You can find great condition used ones for dirt cheap as well. I personally used the G2's my first 2 years with much success, just learn their limitations and they will earn you the money for the top of the line down the road, and then you still have backup's you can then use for wireless scratch track hops or IFB type situations even! -Chase +1 The connector is their major weakness so be carefull with that. Other than that great value on the long run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Tirrell Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi Phil. my 2 cents: get a Sounddevices Mixpre D (check out Simon Paine's post on this board, under "small soundbags" I think. one or two Senn. G3s, your 416 and a good set of headphones. Get a Zoom recorder of some flavour (I like the H2) for those DSLR shoots. rent a timecode machine like the 744T etc. when needed. The Mixpre D will get you lots of ins/outs, be a great front end for any recorder and an excellent backup/swiss army knife later.Buy some good cables and a decent boompole. Get gigs, make money. Chris Newton Ditto on this Though I would rent if possible for the first coupled of jobs until you get your business going this way if you fail spectacularly you are not out as much money. Speaking of which for my money I would go to the 302 used or a used 442 mixer It will not do for bigger film jobs but you will probably be doing small indi stuff or a lot of interview type work where you are probably only running a couple of channels at once. I would make sure to get at least 2 wireless channels though as it is a pain to pick them up every time you work and at the price of a g3 they will pay themselves off quick and would prioritize that over a good recorder. As there is a lot of work out there where you are recording directly back to camera. Use those jobs to pay for the recorder you are looking for you may not be able to take every job at first but this should be a good start. (side note on the g3 packs, you should budget to replace the lav heads with either tram or contryman mics) Also when you are ready to buy a better wireless system there the ebay price for G3 wireless packs last I checked is the same as new so if you do have to sell you shouldn't lose much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 an additional note about wireless in the UK, most used kit (and some new) is channel 69, which won't be legal as of next summer and we're being moved to channel 38. You're a bit more limited with Senn G3's, only ranges G (only a couple of MHz) and GB will be in this range (G2's don't have a band in this range and Sennheiser can't re-tune them). For rentals, see richmond film services http://www.richmondfilmservices.co.uk/ and Better Sound (in Kentish Town) http://www.bettersound.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yes I'd recommend you hire kit for the first few months to see what kind of gear your jobs require. £3,500 sounds a lot but in gear terms doesn't stretch very far especially when you include VAT (unless you're already VAT registered). When you are happy with the gear you need I wouldn't discount second hand gear from eBay or Bblist.co.uk. Remember a basic kit doesn't just include a boommic, boom pole, mixer, mixer bag, headphones, run bag and two radiomic kits... a client will expect you to provide all the cables that link these pieces of kit including camera umbilicals, camera tails and XLR cables. Also, don't forget about spares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Other rental houses in London include Ian Coles at Visual Impact. www.visuals.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardMeredith Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 And me of course Mr Bacon! I might be able to help you with some used kit - there's generally a bit of less popular stuff kicking around. www.meredith.tv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Absolutely Richard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimPitot Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Meredith is always 1st choice for audio kit hire. Forget those other socks and sandal wearers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 " budget to replace the lav heads with either tram or contryman mics " Oscar Sound Tech mic's are an excellent value and noticeable upgrade for the stock G2/G3 lav's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Heath Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Hi Phil. my 2 cents: get a Sounddevices Mixpre D (check out Simon Paine's post on this board, under "small soundbags" I think. one or two Senn. G3s, your 416 and a good set of headphones. Get a Zoom recorder of some flavour (I like the H2) for those DSLR shoots. rent a timecode machine like the 744T etc. when needed. The Mixpre D will get you lots of ins/outs, be a great front end for any recorder and an excellent backup/swiss army knife later.Buy some good cables and a decent boompole. Get gigs, make money. Chris Newton This is a great bang for your buck. If i was just starting my own package i would highly consider this. You can do a lot and it will expand and customize this. You can get a fair price on this stuff used, like a used 416, some used senn g3's or g2's. Rent the bigger stuff when needed. When the jobs say must own gear, They arent going to check if you are renting any gear from someone/rental house, what it might mean is they are gonna low ball our "presonal kit rental". I again tell you to consider the simon paine idea. the Mix-Pre-D is most cost effective, has the ability to use 4 channels inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 The Mix Pre D is certainly a contender, after using an SQN for 20 years (not the same one...) I'm currently planning a bag like the one Simon uses as a lightweight alternative, it won't give me some of the options the SQN does, but for a lot of jobs it'll be perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Mega Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 And me of course Mr Bacon! I might be able to help you with some used kit - there's generally a bit of less popular stuff kicking around. www.meredith.tv Hi Richard, Nice to see you here on the forum. Its about time!!! Hope you're well and busy. When are you coming to Australia next? I was shooting at Mission Beach last week, bring back memories?? Cheers Peter Mega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karri Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 This is not really relevant to the subject at hand but: I would ideally like to look at some sound devices kit but because of budget am perhaps limited in this. I like the concept of the 552 in that it combines the mixer with the recorder but am apprehensive about the 96khz max as would like to do some sfx recording also, at 192khz. With gear acquisitions it's always good to look ahead. But you do realize that between a 192 vs. 96 KHz sampling rate it would only matter if you had a microphone that had a frequency response of well over 48 KHz? Even this very expensive Sennheiser mic: http://www.thomann.de/fi/sennheiser_mkh800_p48.htm goes "only" up to 50 KHz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 This is not really relevant to the subject at hand but: With gear acquisitions it's always good to look ahead. But you do realize that between a 192 vs. 96 KHz sampling rate it would only matter if you had a microphone that had a frequency response of well over 48 KHz? Even this very expensive Sennheiser mic: http://www.thomann.d..._mkh800_p48.htm goes "only" up to 50 KHz... If it's for effects recording, then there's another reason for 192khz. It allows effects editors to alter speed/pitch with less digital artifacting than 96khz. Though 96khz is still a good resolution for this imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 " it would only matter if you had a microphone that had a frequency response of well over 48 KHz? " If only that "improved frequency response" rubbish would go away, as it really isn't relevant (or there!)... what is relevant, in addition to the speed changing issues already mentioned, is that with more samples we get a more accurate picture of the waveform being represented; and this is, BTW, Calculus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.