Looking for first recorder

[Rob Lewis]

Hi everyone, I'm thinking about getting into my first recorder.  My main workload consists of only video work with, Beta SP, DIGI, XD, F900, SDX900, Varicam, and all of the other familiar video formats.  I recently began working with a few new clients that may push me into the filmsound community, FINALLY !!.  The market that I'm in is commercial work and lower budget feature work and I'm looking for a recorder that will mostly be used in the bag or the low budget bag on a cart gig.  It seems that I have to take the financial leap of purchasing a recorder to get the work.  It seems the best options are the 744T, 702T, Tascam HD-P2.  Obviously the 744 is the best, but cost is a huge factor.  I have worked with the SD recorders on some reality programmes and they would best mate with my 442.  I just got off of a video job as a second unit mixer recording to Digi-Beta.  The first unit recordist was not sending any audio to his camera but instead had a SQN 4/Tascam HD-P2. (U.K. Crew)  He claims he never records to camera and the editors absoultely love the quality of sound on the TASCAM. 

I don't see the use of 4 channels, but of course would be nice to have when needed.  The 702T is an option as well, but still the cost factor !!

Does anyone use the TASCAM HD-P2 for commercial and lower budjet feature work ?  Is it a strong contender for the cost factor?  I am aware that it does not generate its own timecode and could be a problem for 16 & 35 Jobs.

Advice ?

Thanks,

Rob L.

[Brian Maier]

I had the HD-P2 for a few days and was never really happy with it.  I would only consider it if you are using a cart setup.  Its poorly designed for bag work.  The buttons are hard to access on the top and the screen angle makes it difficult to read.  Go with the 702t like Scott said.  The build quality is much better, and you get timecode.

[Philip Perkins]

I had the HD-P2 for a few days and was never really happy with it.  I would only consider it if you are using a cart setup.  Its poorly designed for bag work.  The buttons are hard to access on the top and the screen angle makes it difficult to read.  Go with the 702t like Scott said.  The build quality is much better, and you get timecode.

I have both and use them all the time.  The choice is down to money and what you want to do with it.  The plastic case of the P2 isn't any more of a problem that the plastic case of a video camera or deck or a TCDAT was--you don't want to drop it but I don't want to drop my 702T either.  The tests that some respected folks did on the audio of the P2 indicated that the only real reason to record on it wider than 16 bits was compatibility--the analog audio section on  it didn't deliver any better performance @ 24 bits than it did @ 16.  It sounds fine to me.  The main diffs w/the 702T are the quality of the audio @ 24 bit, the fact that the 702 is much "deeper" in features (can use a DVDRAM burner direct, allows take naming from a keyboard etc etc) AND has a stable enough clock to record sync on  its own.  The P2 is NOT so equipped--for regular sync work you have to feed it a stable clock source.  I usually send it TC from video cameras, an SB2 or the 702 etc, and have it clock itself to that, which works great.  The Tascam is a little easier to use in an "autorecord" situation where the recorder is set up to start a new file when it receives ascending TC, and stop and close the file when the TC stops ascending (as from a camcorder in record-run mode).  It is also a little more straightforward menuwise, and seems more friendly to firewire hookup to a computer.  I've sent lots of files from both machines thru telecine and to video post houses and all was well, you just need to understand the capabilities and limitations of each.  You can buy 2 P2s and some CF cards for what one 702T costs.  If you have the money--I'd get the 702T first, and maybe the P2 as a cheaper back up machine.

Philip Perkins

[Brian Maier]

I wasn't so much thinking about the case as I was the switches and layout, they didn't inspire much confidence that it would stand up to bag work.  I could be wrong.  But I totally agree with your assessment.  The menu is intuitive/easy, sound quality was just fine, and it was 1/4 the price of a 744t.  Ultimately get whats in your budget and go from there.

[RPSharman]

For bag work, I'd go with the 702T/744T - All controls being in the front.  But frankly if you have the 442 I'd spend the money for the 744T.  The internal drive and extra 2 tracks are not money wasted.  You can mono mix and ISO up to 3 tracks from the prefader if you are in a situation with tough cues and transitions where the rotary dials don't work for you.  I think it's wise if you are moving up to not buy things twice.  You will regret it at some point.  And if you think about the difference of $1400 @ credit card interest rates, it only costs about an extra $10/month to own the 744T.

For single mic stuff, I use my 744T by itself.  SD swears the preamps are cleaner in the 744T than they are in the 442.  It makes being a one man band much easier on the back.

[miker71]

You might want to consider the Fostex FR2. I bought mine without the timecode option with a view to upgrading it later. I use it double system on low-budget indie work. They've also just released the Fostex FR2LE which is half the size and half the price of the FR2, but has no TC option.

I'd second the opinion to get the SD if it's anywhere near within the reach of your budget.

[Rob Lewis]

How many of you are actually using 4 tracks for video work, or commercial work for that fact.  I see that Philip has the 702T, but I assume that he also has a Deva laying around for the bigger projects.  I am just now trying to break into the realm of Sync sound after 9 years of video work, and justifying having a 4 channel recorder is difficult when most jobs will pobably only require only ever using 2 channels. 

[carbonhobbit]

      Are you using a recorder now for your work and want to get the rental yourself, or are companies asking if you can double record for them?

      In both cases, I would go with the 744 just to have the extra inputs when you need them. Having two machines hanging around later isn't always fun and the costs always increase. Spend now and not; spend now and spend again later.

    If your work has two people talking, you already need three inputs. Unless you have never taken a hit on a paired-up set of wireless. And if they throw in a third person, you have got them covered. For little more money, you can't go wrong.

    And yes, I use all four of my inputs on commercials. Not every shoot, but more than not using the extra two inputs.

        Scott L.

[Philip Perkins]

How many of you are actually using 4 tracks for video work, or commercial work for that fact.  I see that Philip has the 702T, but I assume that he also has a Deva laying around for the bigger projects.  I am just now trying to break into the realm of Sync sound after 9 years of video work, and justifying having a 4 channel recorder is difficult when most jobs will pobably only require only ever using 2 channels. 

The Tascam P2 has stood up fine in lots of bag work (1.5 yrs) re switches etc.  Besides not having all the clock, TC and audio mojo of the SD recorders it is also a bit larger--more like the size of the old Tascam DAT machines, but MUCH lighter (thus larger than a 702 but lighter as well). 

I have the 2 channel machines because that covers my needs almost all the time on docs, commercials, corpo, sfx, radio and small dramatic productions.  When I need more than two tracks I usually need more than 4 tracks as well, like 10 or 18 or 24 tracks.  Thus my other recorder is Metacorder on a laptop. 

Philip Perkins

[chris_bollard]

Buying your first "anything" is always a big challenge. Whether it's your first motorbike, car, surf board or house. It always seems to be a tradeoff between what you really, really want and what you can really afford. My advice is to carefully think about what work (types of production jobs) it is you are doing right now - and what work you think you'll be doing in a years time (and what jobs you'd like to be doing). There's nothing worse than having to buy the same thing twice because you wanted to save a few dollars now.

I've been thru a whole range of recorders - that I guess track the shifting projects that I've done over the years. DAT, minidisc, timecode DAT and on to hard drive recorders. Each one suited the work that I was doing at the time - sometimes just.

Having bought the 744T last November I can say that it's the best choice I could have made - and probably the most forward thinking equipment purchase that I've made in a long time. Sure it costs a little more that the 702 - but you have 4 tracks. If you have never had call to want to split off 3 or 4 sources then maybe you don't need the 744T. But if you do - it's suddenly liberating - and if you can convince the PM of it's value - it's another great item you can charge for - always great to get a good return on your equipemt purchases. I bought it for a reality show - and have continued to use it docos. Matched with a timecode transmit system from the camera - no one but you and post production need to even know that it's in the production chain

Goodluck with a difficult decission!

[Jeff Wexler]

Buying your first "anything" is always a big challenge. Whether it's your first motorbike, car, surf board or house. It always seems to be a tradeoff between what you really, really want and what you can really afford.

Good advise and insight from everyone here. One comment from me, one of the oldest old school guys here (older than old school), is that the decision to purchase your first recorder in the old days was simple --- it was just a PURCHASE decision --- can you afford a Nagra III or not. There was a fairly simple equation for renting vs. purchase and most people waited until they knew they would have a job that lasted long enough to pay for the machine. It didn't matter what sort of job it was, if it was sound for picture, the Nagra was king. There were a few competing recording devices, the Uher Report recorder, the Stellavox and a few others, and there was even a group that adapted cassette recorders to do sync sound, sort of.

Now, it is a whole new ball game with so many choices, so much vartiety of jobs (but even more difficult to land ANY of the jobs), the purchase decision is quite a bit more involved.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Philip Perkins]

Good advise and insight from everyone here. One comment from me, one of the oldest old school guys here (older than old school), is that the decision to purchase your first recorder in the old days was simple --- it was just a PURCHASE decision --- can you afford a Nagra III or not. There was a fairly simple equation for renting vs. purchase and most people waited until they knew they would have a job that lasted long enough to pay for the machine. It didn't matter what sort of job it was, if it was sound for picture, the Nagra was king. There were a few competing recording devices, the Uher Report recorder, the Stellavox and a few others, and there was even a group that adapted cassette recorders to do sync sound, sort of.

Now, it is a whole new ball game with so many choices, so much vartiety of jobs (but even more difficult to land ANY of the jobs), the purchase decision is quite a bit more involved.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

Yeah, but having the Uher made you look like a dweeb.  (I know, I had one...)

Philip Perkins

[Guest Eric Lamontagne]

Well...

Now that we've all had our hands on these products it's a great time to ask this question!

First, answer this:

Will the recorder be a backup mostly or a master?

If you say backup then great save some money and take your time learning about file management and metadata etc on something inexpensive like the FR-2, HD-P2, 702T, 744T, etc. The main quality of these recorders is that they record time stamped wav files, DAT equivalent. They do not however have a cheap and reliable media that you can just hand off at "film break" or the end of the day. They all need external components (laptop, mac mini, dvd burner)to complete their job. That is unless you hand off compact flash, something post would have to be ready for! Don't forget to factor this into their price point. My first purchase was a FR-2T, it's killed some wireless frequencies, taught me many things, and has rarely been my master recorder.

If you say master then look for a device that is an all in one solution ie older PD-6. The PD-6 will give you the ability to  record on two media simultaneously and deliver a disk immediatly. The files will be current as their format has already been established. The PD-6 is going for 5k usd used right now and it's a real bargian.

You can use this unit over the shoulder as a stand alone device and feed a camera! It also has had a recent update allowing you to continue recording from partition to partition automatically. This will enable you to record for hours continuously. If you can wait a bit the PD-6 will be coming down in price as the newer fostex portable recorders come out, they will be capable of much longer record times as they use the full size DVD-RAM disks. 

Many have suggested to rent WHICHEVER unit you decide to purchase and use it as you would normally. Many of these units destroy even the best RF receivers in a bag situation! Each unit records with different media, directory structures and file types. You need to be sure of what you are doing before your investment!

Good luck!

Eric Lamontagne