Jaymz Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 The 552 is a mixer with a 2 channel low resolution backup recording. It can record 96khz/24-bit. Or do you mean the D/A conversion in general? (which Sound Devices themselves acknowledge isn't as good as on their 7-series recorders). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Glenn before I pull the trigger on a Nomad I was wondering if you ever tested the Nomad next to Lectrosonics wireless or RF measuring device? Is there any RF garbage from the Nomad when it records? I understand you are not interested in such a test considering you yourself manufacture and sale wireless but I think some Nomad users would want to use Nomad with Lectrosonics. Thank You. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Good to know I am not alone.... +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Glenn before I pull the trigger on a Nomad I was wondering if you ever tested the Nomad next to Lectrosonics wireless or RF measuring device? Is there any RF garbage from the Nomad when it records? I understand you are not interested in such a test considering you yourself manufacture and sale wireless but I think some Nomad users would want to use Nomad with Lectrosonics. Thank You. Many of our customers and beta testers have reported that there is little or no interference with any wireless system. Every input and output of Nomad has an RF filter to prevent this type of problem. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 It can record 96khz/24-bit. Or do you mean the D/A conversion in general? (which Sound Devices themselves acknowledge isn't as good as on their 7-series recorders). I have edited my original post on this. The 552 is a mixer with a 2 channel lower resolution backup recording. But this does bring up a good point. When any product is advertised as having 24 bit audio this is only marketing. The important figure is the dynamic range of the A-D converter. In this case the specification is 103dB for the 552. This means that there are 17 full bits of data produced and 7 bits of noise to provide a 24 bit recording. The point is the 24 bit audio claim is not the whole story. It is the A-D and D-A dynamic range specification that determines the actual best possible performance of any product. The Nomad has a 117dB A-D converter providing an extra 14 dB recorded dynamic range over the 552 comparison. This is a significant difference. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jabour Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Hey Glenn, This is actually just a math question for how you came up with the numbers of "In this case the specification is 103dB for the 552. This means that there are 17 full bits of data produced and 7 bits of noise to provide a 24 bit recording. " I've always been curious about this type of math as it's not something I feel I always understand. (Sorry if this is off topic, just felt like this was the best place to ask it). Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Hey Glenn, This is actually just a math question for how you came up with the numbers of "In this case the specification is 103dB for the 552. This means that there are 17 full bits of data produced and 7 bits of noise to provide a 24 bit recording. " I've always been curious about this type of math as it's not something I feel I always understand. (Sorry if this is off topic, just felt like this was the best place to ask it).Thanks, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth There is a section on how bit depth relates to dynamic range. Depending on the performance of the A/D converter, some bits in a sample will always be written as 'noise', obviously the less the better. In the stated dynamic range of the 552, the lowest recordable level would be -103dBFS, everything below that (to the theoretical limit of -144dB) would be noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Hi Nick, The math is very simple. Each bit = 6 dB of dynamic range. So 103dB / 6= 17.1 bits of maximum resolution. Due to the need for headroom the actual resolution will be a bit or two less. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Cheers for the explanation, Glenn. Very informative. Explains why Zoom don't publish A-D specs for their handheld gear, some say it's likely 96db A-Weighted... For reference, 552 A/D: 103db 7-series (702-744t) A/D: 114db Nomad: 117db 7-series (788t) A/D: 123db Interesting how none actually get to the 24-bit mark. Even the best rack-mounted standalone A/D converters out there get 125db (20.8-bit). Also interesting is that I can't find A/D specs for the Nagra VI anywhere online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskellett Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 So the Nomad is a "lower resolution backup recording" ( using Glenn's words here ) compared to the 788T based on the A/D converter data posted here, 117db vs 123db, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 Glenn, Are you closed till 2012? Any nomad deliveries between Christmas and New Year? Hi Nick, The math is very simple. Each bit = 6 dB of dynamic range. So 103dB / 6= 17.1 bits of maximum resolution. Due to the need for headroom the actual resolution will be a bit or two less. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 So the Nomad is a "lower resolution backup recording" ( using Glenn's words here ) compared to the 788T based on the A/D converter data posted here, 117db vs 123db, correct? If the input architectures were the same you would be correct but not in this case. Because the Nomad has Neverclip with two A-D converters on each input, no input headroom is required. This allows the entire 117dB of the main Nomad A-D converter to be utilized at all times without the fear of input clipping. Without never clip a recorders input must be kept let’s say 12 dB on average from full scale clipping. Using this example the actual usable input dynamic range of the input of Nomad is 117dB vs 111dB for the 788T. (123dB -12dB of headroom =111dB usable dynamic range.) If the advantage of Neverclip is applied to the 552 comparison the input A-D difference is 117dB for Nomad vs 91dB for the 552. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Glenn, Are you closed till 2012? Any nomad deliveries between Christmas and New Year? We are closed for the week :-( Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 No wifi amp is required for bag use. The Zaxnet output is about 100mw and the range is excellent for both IFB and timecode transmission. The ERX100 is a quad diversity receiver so it's ability to receive the IFB signal without dropouts is excellent even at the 100mw power level. If nomad is used on a sound cart an amp and directional antenna can be added for extended range. I think the best part of this is that the IFB is on 2.4 ghz so there is no interaction with UHF wireless. I hope to get some feedback on the IFB audio quality from Nomad. I think many will be very surprised at the difference from analog fm to our fully integrated digital system . Glenn To back up what Glenn says, I use my IFB on the cart with an amp and off the cart in bag mode without. With the amp my ifb range is = to, or often, greater than the range of my UHF radio mics (using high gain UHF receiver antennas). In bag mode, without the amp the range is still very good. Usually in bag mode I'm operating my UHF radios with whips mounted on the receivers. In that case my ifb rnage still equals my UHF range. Billy (corrected post quoting - jw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I do wish that the Ifb receiver built into the trx900aa had a quad diversity system.. That thing is very dropout prone at anything but close range. Sorry, ot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I've never used the ifb receiver in the TRX transmitters for audio but I do use them all the time for remote control. Which ifb xtr are you using? And what antenna? I do wish that the Ifb receiver built into the trx900aa had a quad diversity system.. That thing is very dropout prone at anything but close range. Sorry, ot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Thanks Billy. How is the power consummation of your ERX1TCD? To back up what Glenn says, I use my IFB on the cart with an amp and off the cart in bag mode without. With the amp my ifb range is = to, or often, greater than the range of my UHF radio mics (using high gain UHF receiver antennas). In bag mode, without the amp the range is still very good. Usually in bag mode I'm operating my UHF radios with whips mounted on the receivers. In that case my ifb rnage still equals my UHF range. Billy (corrected post quoting - jw) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 ERX1TCD will run 12 hours on 2 AA alkaline batteries. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Power consumption on the ERX is pretty minimal. A pair of AA Lithiums last for days. AA Alkalines last a long production day. Thanks Billy. How is the power consummation of your ERX1TCD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Have you tried Imedions or a similar quality rechargeable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I've never used the ifb receiver in the TRX transmitters for audio but I do use them all the time for remote control. Which ifb xtr are you using? And what antenna? I'm using the QRX100 built-in IFB with standard whip antenna. RF power set to "7" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Thanks Glenn and Billy. Glenn, How do you compare ifb100 to the Nomad Ifb as far as performance? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmaho Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 I'm using the QRX100 built-in IFB with standard whip antenna. RF power set to "7" While I use the ifb all the time, I use the stand alone xtr which puts out 100 mw. I'm not sure what the QRX ifb outputs. But the antenna is on the side of the QRX and can get easily buried. You might want to try a very short cable run to an external antenna. btw, I've had a few of the antennas go bad. They have flexible right angle connectors. Try another antenna (if you haven't already). Also, be aware that off the shelf 2.4 gig antennas made for home wi-fi have reverse polarity connectors. Which means the connectors will mate but the center lead does NOT. Also, I assume you've tried changing 2.4 freqs. You should be able to cover a large stage or at least 100+' outdoors with the ifb with no additional amps or directional antennas, so I suspect there is another issue with yours. Give Zaxcom a call (though I believe they will be closed next week for the holidays). Billy Sarokin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Using this example the actual usable input dynamic range of the input of Nomad is 117dB vs 111dB for the 788T. (123dB -12dB of headroom =111dB usable dynamic range.) If the advantage of Neverclip is applied to the 552 comparison the input A-D difference is 117dB for Nomad vs 91dB for the 552. Well...it seems to me that "never clip" changes the sound curves to put the level down to 0 dBfs and it makes fade with the other parts of the sound. I'm sure you have had a good idea with "never clip" (sony PCMD50 has the same principle of limiter with less range).But I always try not to hit the limiter's level, and i am sure i will try not to hit in the same way on Nomad. so your example is not very good to me. Maybe it can add 4 or 6 dB to the dynamic range in my way of recording, no more. You can find an interresting and recent topic on the levels (iso tracks and mixdown) on jwsound. Don't worry Nomad seems good, and the SD recorders too... The differences are certainly not in the dynamic range. The differences are in the way we are going to use them, on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Faber Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 No wifi amp is required for bag use. The Zaxnet output is about 100mw and the range is excellent for both IFB and timecode transmission. The ERX100 is a quad diversity receiver so it's ability to receive the IFB signal without dropouts is excellent even at the 100mw power level. If nomad is used on a sound cart an amp and directional antenna can be added for extended range. I think the best part of this is that the IFB is on 2.4 ghz so there is no interaction with UHF wireless. I hope to get some feedback on the IFB audio quality from Nomad. I think many will be very surprised at the difference from analog fm to our fully integrated digital system . Glenn Glenn, The specifications found on Zaxcom’s website list the Nomad’s Zaxnet output power as 50mW. Is that an old number? Can I safely assume 100mW is correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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