Nomad RF block 21 and 24

[Philip Perkins]

So just curious regarding spray from any piece of gear - in the real world how much affect does a pixel or two or three or even four have on the range of a 411?

I don't know really--I use similar wireless to yours, as well as all-analog ones in a bag w/ a 744T ( a well known "sprayer") and I do ok, blocks 19, 21, 24, 25 etc at various times.. Maybe I just haven't been in enough extreme range situations to tell.

phil p

[RadoStefanov]

If I recall correctly Larry F said that 1 pixel means about 50% reduction in range.

So just curious regarding spray from any piece of gear - in the real world how much affect does a pixel or two or three or even four have on the range of a 411?

[Michael McQueen]

Philip, all powered by the same bds, battery bud II.

[Philip Perkins]

Philip, all powered by the same bds, battery bud II.

Any change when you power the RX separately from the recorder?

phil p

[r.paterson]

Hello, as a quick test I would power the sra seperarely and disconnect the sra xlr ins to the nomads ie no physical,connection then do a scan, I was picking up a lot of rf hash from 788t via the xlr inputs to the sra outputs changed to neutrik emc connectors and it made a big difference...Richard

[RadoStefanov]

Glenn mentioned that the Nomad I/O is Rf Filtered. It must be radiated from the body...

Whoever owns Nomad and Zaxcom Wireless please join the conversation...

Hello, as a quick test I would power the sra seperarely and disconnect the sra xlr ins to the nomads ie no physical,connection then do a scan, I was picking up a lot of rf hash from 788t via the xlr inputs to the sra outputs changed to neutrik emc connectors and it made a big difference...Richard

[pscottm]

here's a block 20 SRa scan w nomad off and on. no difference in rf. nomad 'on' scan looks exactly the same as nomad 'off' scan.

edit: forgot to mention, SR and nomad both powered from BDS v3

[RadoStefanov]

Very good to see such results.

here's a block 20 SRa scan w nomad off and on. no difference in rf. nomad 'on' scan looks exactly the same as nomad 'off' scan.

edit: forgot to mention, SR and nomad both powered from BDS v3

[Michael McQueen]

here's a block 20 SRa scan w nomad off and on. no difference in rf. nomad 'on' scan looks exactly the same as nomad 'off' scan.

edit: forgot to mention, SR and nomad both powered from BDS v3

now this is kind of strange. based on my test vs yours, it looks as if the RF completely ends at the bottom of block 21, to the dot. and based on my test i would assume that the noise would carry off into 20 and taper off and going into 21 slightly increase? i also have a bds v3 that i use in my sd 302 kit and i'll do a switcharoo sometime this week, and try different cables too(even if nomad is filtered at I/O's it could be radiating from box into the cable). i would be happy to get my 21 to look like at least my 24. however usually my 21 is used as camera links, but it does find itself used in the bag quite a bit.

[Jeff Wexler]

I have a stupid question (those are allowed, right?) since I do not have any Lectro receivers, I don't do much work out of a bag, and I probably wouldn't know how to use the scan feature on the receivers even if I had them, wouldn't a better test of RF spray be done with some other piece dedicated test gear (rather than the Lectro receivers)? I don't know what this test gear would be but I assume there is something with a probe and a sweep scan function that could actually plot what the device (Nomad, SD 552, 744T, 788T, etc.) is "spraying" and where it is originating? I understand that there is a good reason to use the Lectro receivers as the "test" device because that is a closer real world test/demonstration (and also the receiver is the gear you already have), but it seems there could be more accurate assessment. The other factor, and again, I do not own or use Lectro wireless, is that people have told me that even after doing scans which show all sorts of RF crap near by, their Lectros have performed properly in the real world, and conversely, even when no RF is displayed, the units can be hit by other things you cannot "see".

If such a test could be performed (maybe this has already been done by Sound Devices and Zaxcom for their gear), something published with a little more detail than just "our devices have very little or no RF spray" would be useful.

[glenn]

I am not sure where this is going or if the intent is to prove the Nomad is really good at not radiating or is a real pig but the results of one sound mixer will be different than others due to many factors. So far this seems like a one sided shoot out. I would like to see some scans with other gear. Now that would be interesting.

We have no complaints about RF radiation from Nomad. I think We got this part very right.

Glenn

[David Waelder]

So far this seems like a one sided shoot out. I would like to see some scans with other gear. Now that would be interesting.

I may be able to help, at least a little.

When conducting some tests of the Nagra VI a few years ago someone asked me whether it had any tendency to throw off RF energy that might hinder use with radio receivers. I borrowed an example and conducted some tests with radio receivers in the full range of Lectrosonics radio receivers available at that time from Block 19 through Block 28.

Regrettably, I did not perform a scan with each radio; I merely tuned it to a frequency within the block and tested to see if any signal variation could be perceived with the recorder powered down and powered up. So the applicability of the data is limited to sample frequencies but we tested a bunch of them so one gets an overall sense of things.

For comparison purposes, I also ran some tests with an Aaton Cantar and a Sound Devices 744 but only a few blocks as a sample.

We did learn that where the receiver is located can make a real difference in performance - not just how close it is but whether it is near the front panel of the recorder or its foot.

Anyway, FWIW, here are the results of that testing:

http://www.productionrecording.com/Tools/NagraRFtest.html

(entirely too many photos to simply post them here)

David

[TimPitot]

I am not sure where this is going or if the intent is to prove the Nomad is really good at not radiating or is a real pig but the results of one sound mixer will be different than others due to many factors. So far this seems like a one sided shoot out. I would like to see some scans with other gear. Now that would be interesting.

We have no complaints about RF radiation from Nomad. I think We got this part very right.

Glenn

This is a thread about the nomad. For other gear, see the relevant threads.

[TimPitot]

I am struggling to see at what point I was rude to be honest.

Can you be more specific?

[RadoStefanov]

Post deleted.Sorry.

Glenn has a point and I am with him.

I will be interested to see how other gear performs. Like the 788t.

[Philip Perkins]

To the OP: please continue your tests, they are of vital interest to many people on this forum.

To Glenn S.: I would say that all regular JW posters really want the Nomad to work out well: there is no attempt to vilify your new product that I can detect here, just an attempt to understand an interaction that appears to be happening. Note that I said APPEARS to be happening. Experienced users of this kind of gear know what Jeff W said--that we have had instances where we "see" problems that don't turn out to be problems for us, and the reverse as well. (Which was my point is saying that I do ok in the blocks the OP was using with a 744T, which all newer machines have been careful to better in terms of RF spray, thus those readings could well turn out to mean nothing in terms of practical use.)

To: Jeff W: I think it's totally ok to ask questions, even apparently dumb ones, even one that may have already been answered, and even ones that might fly in the face of statements/tests/experience/claims etc that have already been made, even by the most expert of us here.

I think the lesson is that each soundie needs to do testing for themselves w/ their own peculiar setup. I'm VERY interested in the results of this kind of testing done by others, but only as a prelude to doing my own with my own stuff.

phil p

[MatthewFreedAudio]

I would be interested in meeting up with some folks in LA to bring our applicable gear to the table and see what sort of spray we may or may not be getting with different pieces of gear. I would also love a more dedicated, and possibly accurate RF spectrum analyzer but in the bag and on our carts we are using RF receiver so ultimately that's what matters.

Off the top of my head here is what seems like current gear to check out that I would like present:

Nomad

Fusion/Deva

788t

744t

Lectro 411's

Lectro SR

Zaxcom QRX100

Remote Audio BDS systems

PSC BDS systems

PM me with additional gear you would like to see checked out and I'll keep a running list. Also, if you are in LA and have some time this week to meet up and can bring some gear let me know.

For wireless, let's try to get all available blocks.

I would see this not as a means of bashing or propping up any one manufacturer or piece of equipment but simply as a quick and dirty way of seeing what gear plays nicely together...as much as we can determine. We may find a Nomad has some spray in Block 21 on a Lectro SRa but perhaps it isn't effecting a 411a. Or, perhaps we will find a 788t has zero spray in one block but massive spray in another, or that common battery sources are an issue, etc.

I'll try to think of as many different combos as possible once I know what gear may be available to check out.

And...we can have a beer in the process, which may or may not affect test results. I make no promises.

[Jack Norflus]

Perhaps one of the rental houses/dealers out your way can help with gathering gear for your tests.

[RadoStefanov]

Great idea Matt...

I would be interested in meeting up with some folks in LA to bring our applicable gear to the table and see what sort of spray we may or may not be getting with different pieces of gear. I would also love a more dedicated, and possibly accurate RF spectrum analyzer but in the bag and on our carts we are using RF receiver so ultimately that's what matters.

Off the top of my head here is what seems like current gear to check out that I would like present:

Nomad

Fusion/Deva

788t

744t

Lectro 411's

Lectro SR

Zaxcom QRX100

Remote Audio BDS systems

PSC BDS systems

PM me with additional gear you would like to see checked out and I'll keep a running list. Also, if you are in LA and have some time this week to meet up and can bring some gear let me know.

For wireless, let's try to get all available blocks.

I would see this not as a means of bashing or propping up any one manufacturer or piece of equipment but simply as a quick and dirty way of seeing what gear plays nicely together...as much as we can determine. We may find a Nomad has some spray in Block 21 on a Lectro SRa but perhaps it isn't effecting a 411a. Or, perhaps we will find a 788t has zero spray in one block but massive spray in another, or that common battery sources are an issue, etc.

I'll try to think of as many different combos as possible once I know what gear may be available to check out.

And...we can have a beer in the process, which may or may not affect test results. I make no promises.

[glenn]

I think the problem with this type of "testing" is that the results are not very repeatable. Different positions and proximity of receivers and recorders and cables and transmitted stuff will all have an effect.

Tests like this are done in RF chambers with calibrated antennas and test equipment to accurately measure the stray RF that is coming off the gear in a quantifiable way.

Anyone is free to do any test they like but the results are going to be very subjective and most likely inconclusive.

Glenn

[johngooch]

Rf spray will be a issue we all will have to manage in bag systems at some time or another. I just had a kortwich bag made and I specified that it have a slot for some cobaltex shielding that I purchased from lessemf.com. This stuff seems to work. Not a total solution but i think it is a a step in the right direction.

[absound]

Thanks Michael for a great post. I too am very interested in learning about integrating the SRa units with a Nomad in a bag. I am particularly interested in learning more about the difference in the RF interference when the SRa and Nomad are powered from the same source, as that is probably the most common powering solution available to us in the bag mixers. I currently have a 552 mixer and notice a difference with the RF scans when I power my 411 receivers separately from the 552.

Please keep the scans and suggestions coming.

[RadoStefanov]

My setup is 552s and 3 Sra.

Regardless if I am powering from the same distro or separate the RF is the same.

I use HawkWoods distros.

Thanks Michael for a great post. I too am very interested in learning about integrating the SRa units with a Nomad in a bag. I am particularly interested in learning more about the difference in the RF interference when the SRa and Nomad are powered from the same source, as that is probably the most common powering solution available to us in the bag mixers. I currently have a 552 mixer and notice a difference with the RF scans when I power my 411 receivers separately from the 552.

Please keep the scans and suggestions coming.

[Philip Perkins]

I would be interested in meeting up with some folks in LA to bring our applicable gear to the table and see what sort of spray we may or may not be getting with different pieces of gear. I would also love a more dedicated, and possibly accurate RF spectrum analyzer but in the bag and on our carts we are using RF receiver so ultimately that's what matters.

Off the top of my head here is what seems like current gear to check out that I would like present:

Nomad

Fusion/Deva

788t

744t

Lectro 411's

Lectro SR

Zaxcom QRX100

Remote Audio BDS systems

PSC BDS systems

PM me with additional gear you would like to see checked out and I'll keep a running list. Also, if you are in LA and have some time this week to meet up and can bring some gear let me know.

For wireless, let's try to get all available blocks.

I would see this not as a means of bashing or propping up any one manufacturer or piece of equipment but simply as a quick and dirty way of seeing what gear plays nicely together...as much as we can determine. We may find a Nomad has some spray in Block 21 on a Lectro SRa but perhaps it isn't effecting a 411a. Or, perhaps we will find a 788t has zero spray in one block but massive spray in another, or that common battery sources are an issue, etc.

I'll try to think of as many different combos as possible once I know what gear may be available to check out.

And...we can have a beer in the process, which may or may not affect test results. I make no promises.

Sounds great--I'd help if I was in LA. I look forward to reading about any testing you do. I understand the interest in RF-chamber testing etc, but we use our gear in the real world. Each soundie's tests are not conclusive and are idiomatic, but a number of people testing the same gear in similar sorts of real world setups might give us a decent idea of what to expect when taken together?

phil p

[John Blankenship]

I would be interested in meeting up with some folks in LA to bring our applicable gear to the table and see what sort of spray we may or may not be getting with different pieces of gear.

...

And...we can have a beer in the process, which may or may not affect test results. I make no promises.

So, based on those two statements, it sounds like you're saying that, "Soundies who spray together, play together"?

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry!

And otherwise -- what Phil said -- I agree.