Red Sues Arri

[Marc Wielage]

The camera wars have just heated up...

Cameramaker Red Claims Espionage

Suit says rival cameramaker Arri benefitted from hacking

By KAREN IDELSON

Dec. 28, 2011, 3:07pm PT

DAILY VARIETY

In a saga worthy of a Hollywood thriller, allegations of email hacking and industrial espionage have surfaced in the camera industry in a lawsuit filed by digital camera maker Red against rival Arri.

In the suit filed Dec. 21 in federal court in Orange County, Calif., Red accuses Arri of stealing technical details and development plans for Red cameras, giving Arri an unfair advantage.

Much of Red's complaint rests on facts revealed in an August plea deal between federal prosecutors and former Arri executive Michael Bravin, who is also a defendant in the suit. Bravin pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of email hacking, admitting as part of the deal that he accessed the email account of Band Pro chief executive Amnon Band.

Bravin, who according to his LinkedIn profile worked for Band Pro for more than 16 years, resigned as Band Pro's chief technology officer to become Arri's VP of market development for digital camera products in January 2010.

From around December 2009 through June 2010, Bravin had access to Amnon Band's email account, as Bravin has admitted. Under his plea deal, he was to serve two months in jail and pay $20,000 in restitution to Band Pro as well as legal costs. Bravin now lists himself on LinkedIn as principal at the Digital Picture Co.

In its complaint, Red asserts that during the time Bravin was hacking Band's email account, Band Pro and Red were discussing a possible joint venture. Red says Band's emails contained detailed descriptions of the technology used in Red's cameras and Red's plans for introducing new models and features.

Red alleges that Bravin passed that information to Arri, giving Arri an unfair competitive advantage, especially with respect to the launch and marketing of the Arri Alexa camera. The Alexa was released in 2010 and is seen as a direct competitor to Red's Epic.

Red's complaint also charges that Arri has engaged in false advertising, and it seeks a permanent injunction to stop any false ads from running.

Red is asking to be awarded any Arri profits that resulted from Bravin's actions and unspecified punitive damages.

Reps for Red, Arri and Band Pro did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Red's Epic and Arri's Alexa have each won devotees. Peter Jackson is using the Red Epic to shoot "The Hobbit." The Alexa was used to shoot "New Year's Eve" and "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118047954

[Eric Toline]

Does anyone else think that Reds lawsuit might be because Arri has a camera that actually works right out of the box and has caused Red sales to go down even though the Arri Alexa is 4x more expensive?

Eric

[macrecorder]

Red could respond in a more professional way - by making better cameras than Arri, ones which aren't full of glitches and bugs. It's called competition, and is way more productive than whining like this. It's no big secret what Red do, Arri no doubt looked at them, and decided they could do better, and they have. Red have an attitude which is more like a cult than a professional camera shop.

[chris_bollard]

Law suits are part of tech business today. Look at Apple and everyone else suing and laying counter suits.

The fact that a patent had been broken (knowingly) really doesn't change things. The longer the case isn't settled the longer profits are higher than they will be after the case is settled.

My favorite is the guy that invented the variable speed windscreen wiper. It took him years to get the case heard and settled. In the end (can't remember exact figure) it was something like 1/2 cent per car (US majors) over 15 or so years; lots of cash. My current favorite is Australian science research think tank CSIRO holds patent on algorithm that allows wifi to work. It's taking the tech giants on one at a time. HP settled for $250 million.

[Jim Gilchrist]

Red could respond in a more professional way - by making better cameras than Arri, ones which aren't full of glitches and bugs.

This is antithetical to Red's business model, where a single tyrannical mogul intimidates a cooperative user base into paying their hard earned money up front for equipment with vaguely true specifications that's still in beta testing. And then demands dissatisfied users keep quiet about poorly performing equipment and bad customer service or be cut off from all technical support.

I fully agree with the rest of your post. Red could take all that time and energy that's devoted to building the cult and cultivating grudges into building an actual practical working camera system.

Best regards,

Jim

[Olle Sjostrom]

Absurd. Proves that Red would rather be Apple. Image and PR over actual working products.

[Sound Grab]

Absurd. Proves that Red would rather be Apple. Image and PR over actual working products.

I guess you've never used an Apple product.

Just recently on a show I was Utility on, the 2nd AC plugged in a mono TA3F cable that was used for our guide track and pooched the RED camera. It wouldn't boot up or even turn on.... nada. He insisted he turned off phantom and switched to line before plugging in, but even then I don't know how an audio cable can badly fry the power components with either of those settings turned on.

I used to like going into the RED myself and changing all the audio settings to make things go faster, but one time I went into one of the audio menus and froze the whole camera requiring all the cables to be unplugged and replugged one by one.

Now I avoid touching that camera at all costs. I hate to be the one that blows up the RED, we'll leave that to the camera guys.

Alexa is the RED done right IMO.

[Olle Sjostrom]

I guess you've never used an Apple product.

I own (and love) the iPhone. Overall, I like Apple, but it's so clear now with all the suings, that they are probably more interested of taking over the world with Theirs and Only Their products, and that's a scary 1984 vision right there, that I don't like. Other than that, Apple's fine.

I don't really have a problem with RED either, only they've always seemed to be a little bit more focused on looks of their products than actually having them be able to do something in the field that isn't glitchy or not functioning properly... I don't think it's meant to be that way though. Anywho....

Alexa IS the RED done right in almost everyone's opinion, it seems. Probably RED too, hence the lawsuit :S

[Jim Feeley]

Speaking of lawsuits:

Apple Seen Hurting Shareholders With Jobs’s Thermonuclear Patent War: Tech

By Peter Burrows - Dec 27, 2011 9:01 PM PT

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-28/apple-seen-hurting-shareholders-with-jobs-s-thermonuclear-patent-war-tech.html

As for RED v ARRI, those with way too much spare time on their hands can download RED's complaint here:

http://ia700800.us.archive.org/5/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.520148/gov.uscourts.cacd.520148.docket.html

Going to be a tricky case for RED, I'd think. But as a PR move, they've already had the impact they want... or so it seems to me. Will be interesting to see how this falls out.

[justanross]

I will never buy or own a PC or windows product ever again.

I know a lot of you guys have seen RED camera problems. But I've worked with them a lot and have never experienced any major issues.

[RPSharman]

I hear Hyundai is suing Ferrari because someone at Ferrari intercepted emails between Hyundai and Kia showing plans to use the same vendor for their spares tires. Ferrari took those plans and used it to make this...

[taylormadeaudio]

Thanks Robert! LMMFAO!!!

~tt

[Jim Feeley]

A few internet wags have noted this tidbit from RED's complaint document:

"Among other things, Bravin falsely asserted that the ARRI Alexa camera was a superior camera to the RED EPIC camera."

That's just lawyering, but I gotta say.... For work, I've been reading a lot of legal documents coming out of Washington DC and a couple federal criminal cases. RED v ARRI looks like a lot more fun.

[studiomprd]

" a PC or windows product "

oops! here we go again...

PC = personal computer, which includes Mac's, made by Apple

windows is an operating system made by Microsoft.

[taylormadeaudio]

Come on Senator,

I think we're all capable of understanding the 'implied meaning'.

Although, as an owner of dozens of Apple products, I would love to see someone smack them down a few pegs -- they're (Apple) getting on my nerves. They're practically infallible these days -- meanwhile their customer support continues to spiral into the lower plains of Hell. I'm sorry, just kidding... I love my Mac(s)... please don't come break down my door and make me watch footage of Steve Jobs being 'inspirational'... RIP, Steve

~tt

[John Blankenship]

Two thoughts come to mind:

1. It's obvious that Arri didn't steal from Red -- the Alexa works.

2. In response to Robert's post, let's use analogies: Ferrari is to Hyunadi as Alexa is to Red.

[mikewest]

Exactly Eric and John,

I have seen REDs lose hours of shooting time and cause plenty stress.

All the commercial shoots and one feature with ALEXAs have been faultless, to my crew mates relief.

I will now not mess with REDs in term of sound feed or jammed code, I just want to record sound!

mike

[Marc Wielage]

Now I avoid touching that camera at all costs. I hate to be the one that blows up the RED, we'll leave that to the camera guys.

I'm exactly the same way. I hand the SB-T timecode box to the assistant (or the camera operator), with cables attached, and say, "OK, it's all yours." If he struggles and doesn't know where the menus are, I usually offer him the manual pages if he needs them (in a non-condescending way). Haven't run into any camera crashes caused by timecode... yet.

I think we should bear in mind that there were probably emails back and forth between Band Pro and Red that did not just talk about the Red in general -- it may have been about future products and accessories that are not yet out. I think this is dirty pool and bad business for the guy to have done this, and it's almost the definition of "unfair competition." Whether or not the Alexa or Red is the better camera, this is not a way to compete fairly.

I will say this to both Red and Alexa: the formidable competitor they're going to have to contend with in a couple of months is the Sony F65. This is a real 4K camera that appears to be very well-made, from a company with more than 40 years' experience in building video cameras. I also think old-school cinematographers know and trust Sony, plus it's got a solid rep with DIT's and post houses. Sony also will train people to maintain and fix their cameras and has a large dealer network, and all that makes them a very reliable choice for studios.

It remains to be seen whether Arri will come out with a 4K camera, but I'm sure it was long in the works before any emails were read. But I don't think the Alexa will be able to compete against an identically-priced Sony 4K camera.

BTW, the full Red lawsuit complaint (all 32 pages) are at this link:

http://www.courthous...2/23/RedCam.pdf

--Marc W.

[johnpaul215]

I've had RED One issues where the camera flashes "Audio Fault" and that's supposedly an issue with TC. After lots of reboots and futzing around we often shoot a setup without TC, then plug it back in during a lighting change and everything magically works fine from them on. Otherwise the only major RED issue I had was this summer, and it was really a battery mount issue =. The body had to go back to the shop to be fixed. That could happen with any camera. Otherwise those "unplug everything, reboot and add cables one by one" eventually gets us back on line.

As for the RED lawsuit.... if anything it probably fuels the fanboy fire. That's an easy spin. "We're so cutting edge that even ARRI is stealing our tech".

I don't think you can compare that to Apple. There is no way anyone could ever claim Android phones would exist if it were not for iPhones. They obviously looked at the phone and thought about what they could do differently. They ended up allowing a lot more customization of settings, but otherwise copied the iPhone. There is nothing revolutionary and new in any Android phone. Yes, they have removable batteries, but that's probably because Android phones freeze up a lot. I have so far only found one *possible* killer app that Droids have that Apple doesn't (yet), and that's the ability to have actual turn-by-turn navigation right from an address in your calendar. iPhones have 3rd party navigation apps, but I don't think you can get to it by clicking an address in your calendar. Sorry, OT, but that's the only thing keeping me from tossing my Droid. It's probably only a big deal to a small percentage of users (us, sales people, repair people), but if you use it, it's wonderful.

[studiomprd]

" but that's probably because Android phones freeze up a lot. "

[ccsnd]

I guess you've never used an Apple product.

Just recently on a show I was Utility on, the 2nd AC plugged in a mono TA3F cable that was used for our guide track and pooched the RED camera. It wouldn't boot up or even turn on.... nada. He insisted he turned off phantom and switched to line before plugging in, but even then I don't know how an audio cable can badly fry the power components with either of those settings turned on.

I used to like going into the RED myself and changing all the audio settings to make things go faster, but one time I went into one of the audio menus and froze the whole camera requiring all the cables to be unplugged and replugged one by one.

Now I avoid touching that camera at all costs. I hate to be the one that blows up the RED, we'll leave that to the camera guys.

Alexa is the RED done right IMO.

I absolutely refuse to plug anything into the camera, or even touch the camera. I'm not going to be responsible for it for this exact scenario. I hand over what I need to hand over and let them deal with it.

On a recent shoot, my mono feed did not get plugged into the red for a couple takes. The DP decided he would come over and make a scene and explain to me that I had to make sure that cable was plugged in at all times. I told him I would give him the cable but as far as plugging it in goes, I would not be touching the camera. Starting the very next shot the camera suffered "audio fault" issues for the rest of the day.

I was glad I stood my ground on that one.

[studiomprd]

" I had to make sure that cable was plugged in at all times. " + " I told him I would give him the cable but as far as plugging it in goes, I would not be touching the camera. "

If only it were really this simple in practice.

making a movie is a team effort: the DP and a sound mixer are making the same movie !

there are way too many factors to have absolute rules on this, (factors like: does this alledged DP even know what s/he is doing ?? or why doesn't the AC know the camera, their instrument, inside-out, top to bottom ??)

But if the production requires an audio feed to their camera-corder, I consider it part of my job to provide it, professionally, and if necessary work to provide it in a form that they can properly utilize. (Nominally, an industry standard feed, and if their toys do not play well with that, well...whose problem is that?) Really, just like sending an audio feed to Video-Assist...

An early issue with all this digital cinematography centered on who was actually foing the recording, and if it wasn't us, sound, doiung the recording, how could we be held responsible for the recording?? This is still a valid and appropriate question, as not only is it not our equipment, (or even our department's equipment) but we (sound crew) are not operating it....

[ccsnd]

We might be making the same movie, and it might be a team effort, but at the same time, It's their gear. I will always provide a feed and hand it directly to the 2nd, but as for plugging it in, im not going to be responsible for that for the exact reasons EQtion Audio mentioned.

Imagine what it would have been like for him if he had been the one to fry it.

I know somehow I would have been blamed for our camera issues had I been the one to be messing with audio, or audio settings on the camera.

that being said, If camera doesn't know what they are doing with the cable or menu settings I will help them and guide them, but never put my hands on the camera.

would you let camera come set time code on your 788?

[studiomprd]

" at the same time, It's their gear. "

I agree...

" as for plugging it in, im not going to be responsible for that "

I agree...

" I will help them and guide them, but never put my hands on the camera. "

I agree...

" I would have been blamed for our camera issues "

I agree...

...

...

I may offer an adapter if I have one that might help, or adjust the level I'm sending, if that might help...