gabemonts Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Hi, Recently worked with the f3, and the timecode would not sync to the 744t at 23.976, the camera recording framerate. (flashing tc on 744t display) Checked the camera settings, and the sdi output is set to 59.94. Switch that to 23.976, and it syncs no problem. (solid tc on 744t display) The interesting thing is I wasn't plugged into the sdi, but into the tc out. So the tc out is linked to the sdi out setting, not the internal recording setting. Also the Zacuto viewfinder the Dp uses cannot process that the 23.976 framerate of course, and loses signal. So, I jam, disconnect tc, and reset the camera tc out to 59.94. Back in Business. My question is, what happens if I just sync to the 59.94 tc? I'm still recording in 23.976 on the 744t. Will I be in sync? Obviously it's a bit of a cheat, since the 744t and the zacuto both react to the tc difference. If there was a huge discrepancy, that would be problematic for syncing footage captured in camera to footage recorded externally. If i am jamming to a single frame, will the numbers be so close that it will make no perceivable difference? Also, at the most basic level, this complicates/lengthens the simple task of jamming. Is it another case of "More complications? What else is new!?!" Throwing it out to all of you in the hopes that I learn something! Thanks. Wish everyone a prosperous 2012. -g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Could you read the TC from the camera on something else (like Ambient's app for the iPhone) which would tell you the frame rate of that code? If the 744 didn't like it then it probably wasn't 23.98 code (or the level was too high or too low). It might have been something else (29.97? 30?) or it might not have been proper TC at all (did it sound like TC?). Any noise from post on this? phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Or, how about making the 744t the TC master? I have not had this problem with the f3, but on the EX3, I had to dig into a system menu and select genlocking to 23.976 vs 59.94i to make the XDCAM TC output match the video signal rate. Also, the SDI signal outputs and HDMI outputs can be user defined... I don't have the manual with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabemonts Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 No iphone here. At 59.94 on the f3 out, I would read incoming tc on the 744 jam menu display, but the tc framerate icon would flash. As long as the f3 output select was set to 23.98, everything was normal and I would jam accordingly. My question is do I need to? And additionally, what is the benefit of the tc out following the sdi out, instead of the in camera recording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabemonts Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Or, how about making the 744t the TC master? I have not had this problem with the f3, but on the EX3, I had to dig into a system menu and select genlocking to 23.976 vs 59.94i to make the XDCAM TC output match the video signal rate. Also, the SDI signal outputs and HDMI outputs can be user defined... I don't have the manual with me. So every time you switched frame rate in camera, you also had to switch the timecode submenu? Or that the switch tells the camera you want the tc out to follow the in camera format? Just curious since the menu titles don't always match their function... ha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 again, on the ex3, If I was switching between Interlace and progressive, I did have to tell the camera to have the tc follow the camera format wise this was to provide a 23.98 TC signal to go into a Ki Pro Mini.. I use a zaxcom fusion for my sound recording, and usually a tc slate or sync box on camera... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 should specify that I was doing double system for anything narrative on the F3.... for interviews, etc on f3, I do single system with a non-tc backup... Though I guess technically I am doing a multi format video single system for those, as I have audio embedded in the hd-sdi to the ki-pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabemonts Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 again, on the ex3, If I was switching between Interlace and progressive, I did have to tell the camera to have the tc follow the camera format wise this was to provide a 23.98 TC signal to go into a Ki Pro Mini.. I use a zaxcom fusion for my sound recording, and usually a tc slate or sync box on camera... Ah got it, thanks for clarifying. And, since this was doc/run and gun style, no place for slates/syncboxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 can you send a mono mix on a hop or cable to the camera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabemonts Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 can you send a mono mix on a hop or cable to the camera? Sent a scratch channel via wireless and cam mic on ch2. I just wonder if I can save some steps in the process, and maybe learn a couple things along the way. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 No iphone here. At 59.94 on the f3 out, I would read incoming tc on the 744 jam menu display, but the tc framerate icon would flash. As long as the f3 output select was set to 23.98, everything was normal and I would jam accordingly. My question is do I need to? And additionally, what is the benefit of the tc out following the sdi out, instead of the in camera recording. Right. In my experience if the 744's TC is flashing then it is not being sent the TC it is expecting, or the level is wrong. It will attempt to show/jam etc to any TC you give it, but it is cause for concern. It has never happened to me that the 744 TC flashed when it was really getting the TC it was set for. Did you try other TC rates on the 744 and see if it settled down with them? Re: the iPhone, that was just a suggestion of a (free) way of knowing what the frame rate of the TC you were looking at really was, which is kind of the issue here, no? Perhaps there is an Android app that does the same thing. Re: the TC following the SDI out, my first guess was that there is some deeply menued setting that switches this, and my 2nd guess is that it is something Sony thought was a good idea! phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabemonts Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Right. In my experience if the 744's TC is flashing then it is not being sent the TC it is expecting, or the level is wrong. It will attempt to show/jam etc to any TC you give it, but it is cause for concern. It has never happened to me that the 744 TC flashed when it was really getting the TC it was set for. Did you try other TC rates on the 744 and see if it settled down with them? Re: the iPhone, that was just a suggestion of a (free) way of knowing what the frame rate of the TC you were looking at really was, which is kind of the issue here, no? Perhaps there is an Android app that does the same thing. Re: the TC following the SDI out, my first guess was that there is some deeply menued setting that switches this, and my 2nd guess is that it is something Sony thought was a good idea! phil p I'm 85% confident I switched the 744 to 59.94 and it recognized incoming code. I think that's when I realized to look at the output signal in camera... maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 yes, it is a deep menu, but I have neither my camera nor my manual with me today. I have no idea what Sony was thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 The 744t can not do timecodes higher than 30fps so you certainly did not have it set to 59.94. When the TC is blinking on your 744t it means it is not seeing valid timecode. More than likely it is seeing a frame rate mis-match. Slight chance it is an incorrect level but I have both jammed and slaved with an F3 and never had this issue. It does sound like something deep in the cameras menu settings. Call me crazy but this seems like something the AC/Camera op should know about or be solving. It's their piece of equipment. But it is very good if you can solve their problem! www.matthewfreed.com Production Sound Mixing for TV, Films, and Commercials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Mills Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 lastly, the dp needs to have z-finder firmware 2.o to support 24fps.. it's free, but he may need to use a PC to download it.. see Zacuto website Z-finder FAQ page.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 " Call me crazy but this seems like something the AC/Camera op should know about or be solving. It's their piece of equipment. " EXACTLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayer Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Recently worked with the f3, and the timecode would not sync to the 744t at 23.976, the camera recording framerate. (flashing tc on 744t display) Checked the camera settings, and the sdi output is set to 59.94. Switch that to 23.976, and it syncs no problem. (solid tc on 744t display) The interesting thing is I wasn't plugged into the sdi, but into the tc out. So the tc out is linked to the sdi out setting, not the internal recording setting. My question is, what happens if I just sync to the 59.94 tc? I'm still recording in 23.976 on the 744t. Will I be in sync? Obviously it's a bit of a cheat, since the 744t and the zacuto both react to the tc difference. If there was a huge discrepancy, that would be problematic for syncing footage captured in camera to footage recorded externally. If i am jamming to a single frame, will the numbers be so close that it will make no perceivable difference? All 7 Series machines will cross-jam between compatible time code frame rates (and incompatible ones too, but that isn't a great idea). From the current 744T manual: Identical to the Ambient Recording series of time code products, the 744T time code generator can “cross jam” differing frame rates. The 744T will cross jam time code at the top of the second for phase-accurate (the 00 frames will match) time code at the set frame rate. The flashing frame rate indicator does not mean that the 744 will not jam to the code, it is simply an indicator to the mixer to pay attention because something could be set incorrectly. The timecode frame rate will always follow the system video frame rate settings. There are only two "NTSC" rates available, 29.97 and 23.976. You will only get 23.976 when the camera is set to a 23.976 format, all other formats will give you 29.97 code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabemonts Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 All 7 Series machines will cross-jam between compatible time code frame rates (and incompatible ones too, but that isn't a great idea). From the current 744T manual: The flashing frame rate indicator does not mean that the 744 will not jam to the code, it is simply an indicator to the mixer to pay attention because something could be set incorrectly. The timecode frame rate will always follow the system video frame rate settings. There are only two "NTSC" rates available, 29.97 and 23.976. You will only get 23.976 when the camera is set to a 23.976 format, all other formats will give you 29.97 code. All 7 Series machines will cross-jam between compatible time code frame rates (and incompatible ones too, but that isn't a great idea). From the current 744T manual: The flashing frame rate indicator does not mean that the 744 will not jam to the code, it is simply an indicator to the mixer to pay attention because something could be set incorrectly. The timecode frame rate will always follow the system video frame rate settings. There are only two "NTSC" rates available, 29.97 and 23.976. You will only get 23.976 when the camera is set to a 23.976 format, all other formats will give you 29.97 code. Ah, this is exactly what I was after. So despite the output tc being 59.94, if I jam to my 744t set to 23.976, It will wait for the top of the second to jam, and therefore will be in sync with the f3 in camera footage recording at 23.976. Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayer Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ah, this is exactly what I was after. So despite the output tc being 59.94, if I jam to my 744t set to 23.976, It will wait for the top of the second to jam, and therefore will be in sync with the f3 in camera footage recording at 23.976. Thanks guys! Correct. Just remember, the timecode rate will always be 29.97 for 59.94i (and 25 for 50i for that matter) video modes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 So perhaps the OP would be better off setting his 744 to 29.97? Also, could a drop frame / non drop mismatch cause the 744 to display the warning as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 " a drop frame / non drop mismatch " DANGER...DANGER... WARNING WILL ROBINSON... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Correct. Just remember, the timecode rate will always be 29.97 for 59.94i (and 25 for 50i for that matter) video modes. Wait--aren't you guys disagreeing here? If the camera was set to 59.94 the correct 744 TC would be 29.97 as I understand it. Gabe--did you try 29.97 with the F3 output? phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 The timecode frame rate will always follow the system video frame rate settings. There are only two "NTSC" rates available, 29.97 and 23.976. You will only get 23.976 when the camera is set to a 23.976 format, all other formats will give you 29.97 code. Beware -- there's also 30.00NDF TC, and also 29.97 drop-frame. All "valid" for NTSC, but probably not right in this situation. I agree that 29.97NDF would be the right choice, assuming the camera was shooting 59.94 (1080i or 525). And Matt is right about the 744's ability to cross-jam, which is useful in some situations. All these non-integer values are compatible to a point, in that they won't drift over time. You could use 23.976 timecode in a 29.97ND project (or vice-versa), but I think it makes more sense to stay with whatever mode the camera is in. Workflow tests are really useful here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayer Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 So perhaps the OP would be better off setting his 744 to 29.97? Also, could a drop frame / non drop mismatch cause the 744 to display the warning as well? Wait--aren't you guys disagreeing here? If the camera was set to 59.94 the correct 744 TC would be 29.97 as I understand it. Gabe--did you try 29.97 with the F3 output? phil p My point was more that there is no such thing as 59.94 timecode, just poorly worded. When the F3 is set to a 23.98 mode, the HDSDI output can be set for either 59.94i with a 2:3 cadence built in or 23.98PsF. (Yes, I know it's 23.976, just quoting the Sony manual nomenclature..:-) ) That difference is probably what is causing our confusion. Derek, yes, if you feed a 744T DF code when it is set for ND, the TC indicator will flash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 When the F3 is set to a 23.98 mode, the HDSDI output can be set for either 59.94i with a 2:3 cadence built in or 23.98PsF. (Yes, I know it's 23.976, just quoting the Sony manual nomenclature..:-) ) That difference is probably what is causing our confusion. This option causes a lot of confusion, especially since many owner/operators are unaware it exists. At least that's my experience. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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