MS decoding in Avid and FCP

[Fernando]

Hi all,

Is there a simple way to decode MS, just for monitoring, in Avid and FCP?

I'd like to give editors simple instructions to monitor LR from MS so director can evaluate sound from the start instead of listening to the M track only until audio post.

When I explain how to do it externally (mixer, etc) they just get scared (most) or yawn (many) so I'd like to  give step by step instructions about how to do it within the image editing software.

Not shure if it's easy to set monitoring pan and phase (using an EQ plug-in flat and inverting the phase, for example) + they also need to duplicate the S track, etc. Please help.

Thank you,

Fernando

[Philip Perkins]

No, not really.  Best for them would be to make an LR stereo mix of it for them to use in the cut, that can be relinked to the original

before they export.

Philip Perkins

[Fernando]

Thank you.

So you mean there is an MS decode plug-in on the Avid?

And then you can choose to use the original files when exporting to OMF?

Is this tested?

[Philip Perkins]

Not that I know of.  Someone would have to make the conversion before they loaded the files.  That said, can't AVID's use RTAS plugs?  There might be an RTAS that would decode MS audio, but getting editors to do this might be a challenge, esp since they tend to split audio up all over the timeline however it suits them. 

Philip Perkins

[Fernando]

AVID: Jakob suggest manually decode and then render but I'd like to know in more detail about a final link to original MS files... when I worry about this is because I'm doing the post.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.movies.production.sound/browse_frm/thread/4adf9fb307ea472f#

RTAS is another option, I forgot about it, I think I have a free MS decoder from Tom Erbe (SoundHack) I could try.

Then there's FCP. When I deal with it is because it is a low budget production with not very experienced editors so it has to be really easy to do. I guess one could use AudioUnit plug ins there... any experience someone?

In general, I think that a simple monitor-only plug-in would be THE solution. Just set wich track/s are M or S and enjoy the LR.

In Europe at least, MS is widely used for docus for many years now and it is very deceiving that it is still an issue...

[Philip Perkins]

AVID: Jakob suggest manually decode and then render but I'd like to know in more detail about a final link to original MS files... when I worry about this is because I'm doing the post.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.movies.production.sound/browse_frm/thread/4adf9fb307ea472f#

RTAS is another option, I forgot about it, I think I have a free MS decoder from Tom Erbe (SoundHack) I could try.

Then there's FCP. When I deal with it is because it is a low budget production with not very experienced editors so it has to be really easy to do. I guess one could use AudioUnit plug ins there... any experience someone?

In general, I think that a simple monitor-only plug-in would be THE solution. Just set wich track/s are M or S and enjoy the LR.

In Europe at least, MS is widely used for docus for many years now and it is very deceiving that it is still an issue...

So were you referring to Euro productions when you said that they'd been using the M channel only to cut with (assuming they are keeping the S channel in the timeline, just muted)?  That might be the best you can hope for, esp. considering how lofi so many editorial audio monitoring setups are.  Having them listening to the full decoded stereo, but without the knowledge to control the width might raise time-consuming questions.  During editing many editors are really only listening to dialog and maybe some music as they try to structure the film.  Do they really need to monitor the MS in stereo all along?  In the US MS is very rare in docs, so this hasn't ever come up for me.

Philip Perkins

[Fernando]

Well, in many cases it is important to monitor the decoded LR stereo. In cases where they must evaluate the take taking sound in account (LOL!) I've find myself in that scenario many times.

I'm just back from a small nice film in wich the dialog is very scarce (almost inexistent) and all the sound was recorded using only MS.The director need to listen to the richer -decoded- stereo signal.

In a recent docu recorded in MS it was key that director and editor could evaluate takes listening in stereo. The M channel alone was at the edge of inteligibility in one case because of some masking happening, but in stereo was pretty nice.

Some time ago I was recording for a docu an old lady talking with her soft voice and a big truck passed by very near. In mono (just M) the take may have been discarded, but in stereo you didn't miss a bit of her words.

Our brain use spatial cues to "focus" and "follow" a "sound subject" discriminating it from the rest of sounds, no matter how dense and freq. similar they are (to a point, obv.). It works pretty well.

Of course in many other cases it is not abs. nec. to monitor in stereo and can be cut using just the M signal.

But even in that cases, if they could monitor in stereo with no hassle, it would be very appropiate.

Anyway, some of us would be extremely happy if simple and effective solutions to monitor MS material within Avid and FCP wouldbe available, that's why I'm asking.

P.S. they don't "need" to control the width, just monitor in 50:50 ratio.

[bcopenhagen]

Brainworx has a free M/S decoding plugin for VST, RTAS, and AU.

http://www.brainworx-music.de/index.php?nav=26&um=2&lang=en

I found folks talking about it over on the gearslutz forum.

I've never tested it.

My gut feeling agrees with Philip:

getting editors to do this might be a challenge, esp since they tend to split audio up all over the timeline however it suits them. 

Seems like an inline hardware solution that can easily be turned on/off might be less intrusive to the workflow within the NLE.

Brian

[Fernando]

Thank you. I'll take a look to Brainworx plugins.

Here is Tom Erbe's page I talked about. I know/use SoundHack for many years now. The RTAS free plug-ins are down the page and there's an MS matrix (I'll see how it works for this purpose):

http://www.soundhack.com/freeware.php

Yes, I also think that a hardware solution would be the less intrusive for some (the ones that get scared or yawn when you tell them about MS)

But I also try to find usable tools for the occasions I find an editor interested in working the proper way when it's necessary or by director's requirement.

So it looks like RTAS or decode+render for Avid...

but what about FCP ? Use Audio Units ?