600 ohms headset to use with Zaxcom recorders?

[Ugarte Sound]

Is there anyone who's using 600 ohm headset with a Zaxcom recorder? I'm thinking on getting some 2nd hand but unused Sennheiser HME26 but they are the 600ohm version and now I'm realising I've always used my Zaxcom Nova with 100ohms HD26s.

Will the headphone out of the recorder be ok with that extra impedance...? Anyone used those before on a Zax recorder?

 

Thank you

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

I can test it with my Nova for you if you give me some time, but I doubt it's a good idea.  It wasn't great with the Nomad I had.

[Rick Reineke]

   I had a set of 600 ohm AKG K240 headphones. The HP volume was adequate on my 302 but not on many other devices. I do not know about the Nova or the  HP amp specs.

[Doc Justice]

Headphone guy here. 

 

I believe the Nova has a 32Ω headphone output. There are different schools of thought that says the output impedance needs to be 1/5th to 1/8th of the nominal impedance of your headphone.

 

Since headphones have different impedances at different frequencies, you might experience big shifts in frequency response with your 600Ω headphones plugged in. It’s just not receiving the voltage necessary to drive it accurately. It won’t be a 1:1 copy of what is being recorded.

 

Electric damping factor is reduced as output impedance increases. So for 600Ω headphones, you’d likely need a 75Ω - 120Ω output to drive it.

 

Of course, this is all just what the math says and you may or may not be able to tell the difference in reality. Plug in the headphones, crank the volume enough to hear it, and see if it’s good enough for you. 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

Just tested a Nova2 with two different 600 ohm headphones:  AKG 240 Monitor and AKG 240DF (yes, these are different).

 

Both were a bit quiet; I had to set maximum volume to get a useful mixing level.  This is normal and expected behaviour for 600ohm phones.  But if you value the ability to crank up the volume to hear the nitty gritty details, you may want to consider different headphones.  I recall it may be possible to boost the headphone output in the menu somewhere, and I didn't try this, but I recall avoiding it on the Nomad because it introduced obvious distortion.

I didn't flag any distortion or obvious frequency shifts, so it might be "good enough" for careful use.  I wouldn't discount Doc Justice's technical explanation here, it's very possible the frequencies were shifted, and I might notice more over time, but it wasn't a big enough shift that it was immediately obvious.  Your HME26 may also perform differently.  If I were guessing, I might say the low end was exaggerated, but it was hard for to differentiate the frequencies I was hearing through the phones from the music I was testing with; both the phones I tested are open back, so I was hearing some outside sound as well as the phones as well.

So, take this as a cautiously optimistic data point.  All I can say is try it and see.

[Ugarte Sound]

Great responses here thank you everyone.

I did wired my HME26s using the Audio Hi cables (there are Audio Hi and Audio Lo wiring options) and the results are encouraging. Haven't notices any big difference in freq response. Maybe something around 5dB lower than regular 100ohm HD26s. I haven't tested it thoroughly but it doesn't look bad.

 

[Ugarte Sound]

Happy to report that Sennheisers HME26 600ohms work well with Nova using Audio Hi cables (Left tip Right ring). The rest goes to the sleeve. Same for the mic cable, using Audio Hi for tip. Gain for slate mic needs to be all the way up in the Nova but level is just fine. I compared side by side HME26 600ohm vs HD26 100 ohms and I think there's something around 3-5db level difference between them but the Nova's HP out can handle it perfectly well. I feel HME26s are a tini bit less brighter than HD26, like high freqs aren't as crisp as the 26s, I guess it could be due to the Ohms difference. Also for the record "cable 7" of the optional cables for the Sennheiser HMEs/HDs is made of steel which makes it more resistant but also more stiff and worst of all much prone to get cable noise thru movement and wiggle, the transmission thru the cable to the ear cup is quite noticeable so I would not reccomend it for bag work. Leaving here this for the record

[kevcarlson]

Can you guys educate me?  
Maybe @Doc Justice if you're the headphone guy?  I've been really happy with Senn. HD 280 pros 64Ω.  But I'd like another pair of headphones, and was considering Beyer DT 770--is this considered an upgrade?  Some studio guys I know think they are the best.
But which [closed back] version should I get?  And I thought the higher the Ohms the less noise (if your HP amp can drive it), but I'd like to learn how Ohms affect the signal.  Which Ohms should I try to find in headphones?  FYI, I use a 688 and 633 for mixer.  Also, I don't want to spend more than $199, which I think several of the 770's are right now.
 

[Ontariosound]

Many Sound Mixers use Sony MDR 7506 headphones which are 63 Ohms.  I use these regularly because they are familiar sounding and have a somewhat hyped low-end which helps to target Boom Pole vibrations or 

wind noise on a lav.   I have a few Beyer Dynamic DT 1770 Pro for studio and home use, 250 Ohm.  Lower impedance headphones became popular because iPods, cellphones and most laptops have low power 

headphone amps internally, and a lower impedance headphone will pull more current and are louder at low volume settings.  Recording consoles and most quality Mixer/Recorders that we use have a strong headphone amplifier

internally and have enough power to drive a set of 250 Ohm cans to a loud volume.  Just my opinion.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

If you're looking for audio quality, impedance isn't where you should start.  It's a consideration for headphone designers, not for mixers, other than making sure your equipment can drive them.  Many devices (especially consumer devices that run on lower voltage) can't supply enough voltage to drive high-ohm headphones at decent levels, and even if they can, they may not be flat throughout the frequency curve.  Also worth noting that even though most headphones specify a single number, impedance is actually a frequency curve with the lowest frequency at the resonant frequency of the drivers, which is part of what accounts for the frequency shifts that are heard when the headphone amp isn't capable of outputting high enough voltage.

If you're an audio mixer, audio quality in your headphones also isn't necessarily where you should start.  There are plenty of decent-sounding headphone models out there, but there are other considerations for on-set use, namely durability, cost, comfort, and isolation.  Quality is one consideration, not the only one.  Listen to a bunch of 'studio' headphones in your price range (and there aren't a lot of 'studio' options < $200), and pick the one that sounds and feels right to you.  It takes a long time to really figure out what headphones you like, and the only way to really get to know them well is to buy them and use them.

Ontariosound mentioned a couple good starting points.  I currently mix with Beyerdynamic DT1770Pro for their comfort and isolation (not in your budget).  I own Sony MDR7506s, which I dislike, but keep because they are 'standard' so it's useful to know what other mixers are used to hearing.  I really like the sound of Audio Technical ATH-M70x, they are flat and clear, but I've had them break three times in the field, so they aren't durable enough for set use.  Its sibling, the ATH-M50x is better built, inexpensive, and also sounds quite good, albeit with exaggerated low end (which may be useful to you for the reason Ontariosound stated above).  I mixed for years on Sennheiser HD-25 II DJ phones, and abandoned after my third set developed the same fault in the earpiece connection.  They are well isolated, not especially flat, and not especially comfortable (being on-ear and a tight fit).

Long story short, if you are happy with your HD280s, why change them?  You can listen around for 'better' models, and maybe you'll experiment over the years.  But there's no good reason to change them if they are doing the job for you.  Better is subjective.

[kevcarlson]

10 minutes ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

If you're looking for audio quality, impedance isn't where you should start.  It's a consideration for headphone designers, not for mixers, other than making sure your equipment can drive them.  
Long story short, if you are happy with your HD280s, why change them?  

Thanks for that really thoughtful comment @The Documentary Sound Guy.  And thanks also to @Ontariosound for the response.  Both are very helpful.  
The reason for the change is just to be able to hear more detail and know what I'm capturing so I can deal with it on set.  So I'm not starting with just looking at impedance, I just wanted to learn or confirm on that aspect of it.  Especially when there are options for that, like with the 770s.  My understanding so far is that the higher ohm options have more windings, and tighter drivers and so do result in a better representation but of course you can't use that on low power sources.  
Maybe phrased another way, if your mixer can drive them, is there any reason not to go with higher ohms--if the audio will be slightly better?

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

43 minutes ago, kevcarlson said:

Maybe phrased another way, if your mixer can drive them, is there any reason not to go with higher ohms--if the audio will be slightly better?

I guess not.  But what I was trying to say is that it's not as straightforward as higher ohms = better audio.  Its one consideration among many in headphone design ... one tool of many that can improve audio.  I own several high-ohm models, and some sound fantastic.  But so do several of my low-ohm models.  There are too many other design factors that come into play in audio quality to make the generalization you are trying to make.  Higher ohms is an indication that clarity might be good, not a guarantee.

My two favourite "best-sounding" headphones are the AKG-240DF (600ohm), and the Audio Technica ATH-M70x (75ohm I think?).  My very expensive Beyerdynamic DT1770Pros (250ohm) that I use every day also sound pretty good, but they aren't the best, flattest, or clearest of the bunch.  They are the best compromise of a bunch of factors that happen to suit how I'm mixing right now.

A note about the AKG-240DF:  I love these specifically for their clarity, which you could easily attribute to the high winding count = high ohms.  But I also own the AKG-240 Monitor variant, which is also 600ohms, and it is nowhere near as clear.  These two headphones are almost identical in design.  They share probably 90% of their parts.  The major difference is that the AKG-240DF uses multiple drivers with a crossover, and the AKG-240 Monitor is a single driver design.  Neither of these are suitable for on-set use (open back), and they are both long-since discontinued (the current AKG-240 mark II is decent, but doesn't have the magic of the originals that were design and manufactured in Austria).

[Doc Justice]

Happy to jump in here. Thanks for flashing the Bat Signal there.

 

So yeah, others have hit the nail on the head. Higher impedance doesn't automatically mean better sound, even if your mixer can drive it. Impedance mostly says how hard a headphone is to push, not how great it sounds.

 

SD mixers like the 6 series can totally drive 80Ω or even 250Ω headphones, you just give up some volume headroom. 600Ω headphones might also be fine for you, but you'll just likely be living at the top of the headphone knob.

 

We're also not really talking about the frequency response curve here. No matter the impedance, different headphones will have different sound just due to their construction, materials, shape, and use. Impedance also isn't flat. Every headphone has an impedance curve, usually peaking around the driver resonance.

 

I'm not sure what to recommend to you, because I don't know really know why you want something different than your Sennheisers. It's hard to find something "better" if we don't know what's important to you. Headphones are like underwear. Some people prefer boxers, some prefer briefs. The only thing that I think we can all agree on is that wearing something that clamps down on you is going to get uncomfortable quickly.

 

I think I took the metaphor too far. I should have gone with mattresses. Anyway...

 

If you're looking at the DT--770, I recommend the 80Ω version (though the 250Ω one is fine). It's not that's "better" than your HD-280, it's just different. Some mixers love their sound (I'm one of them), and some mixers think that it hides problems too well. Your best bet is borrow a pair from someone and try them out. I think you'll find that comfortable and reliable beats better-on-paper every time.

[kevcarlson]

Thanks for the great info you two!  

[Ontariosound]

And if you are plugging in 2 sets of headphones to your Mixer/Recorder, higher impedance headphones won't load down the internal headphone amp.