D Clay Audio Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 Hey all -- I have been wanting a DPA 4560 binaural headset mic for some time, but I can't really justify the $1500+ cost right now (headset, plus microdot adapters). So my idea is this: I do already own a pair of DPA 4060's. If I can rig up one of the DPA Dual Headset Mounts, so that I can attach and orientate my 4060's, it should effectively be the same thing, right? Sure, it won't be as elegant, but it'll get the job done just fine. I've thought about using some wire similar to Ursa wire rigs, and wrapping it around the earpieces -- so that I can run the mic cables along the wires, and position them in my ear canals. Or I'm thinking something like these might work for that purpose: https://www.michaels.com/product/bead-landing-20-gauge-colored-copper-wire-10105405?cm_mmc=PLASearch-_-google-_-MICH_Shopping_US_N_Beads+%26+Jewelry_N_PMAX_BOPIS_N-_-&Kenshoo_ida=&kpid=go_cmp-18514199894_adg-_ad-__dev-c_ext-_prd-10105405&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoeGuBhCBARIsAGfKY7woMUfQCYMVcq253o_FTka3ROyv1RLV6W5PZjwjnD2hh762Nt6oX7kaAj87EALw_wcB https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/009624-telex-aef3-nylon-earloop https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/009623-telex-aef2-09252000-plastic-covered-metal-earloop and I could use windscreens to protect against earwax and such: https://www.sweetwater.com/c379--Windscreen?highlight=DUA0560&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organicpla&seoslug=dpa-dua0560-miniature-foam-windscreen-for-dscreet-4060-series-microphones-black-5-pack&catrollup=2/23/378/379&mrkgadid=&mrkgcl=28&mrkgen=gpla&mrkgbflag=1&mrkgcat=drums&percussion&acctid=21700000001645388&dskeywordid=&lid=58700008501148603&dsproductgroupid=&product_id=DUA0560&prodctry=US&prodlang=en&channel=online&storeid=&device=c&network=x&matchtype=&adpos=largenumber&locationid=1025990&creative=&targetid=&campaignid=20417179647&awsearchcpc=&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAoeGuBhCBARIsAGfKY7yMOzpAQlPumSsC207RfsYp_Rmal82YUxQ7yjdxs_b6eu_hQ1xFZ6UaAn_rEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds i'm not entirely sure how to orient the microphones -- should the ends face into my ear canals? or outward, the way that my ears would be capturing sound? Anybody think this would work? Any advice for pulling this off? Let me know your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalton Patterson Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 Hahaha. Just get it close enough. Unless you’re going full Neumann fritz. The fritz is an actual head with two mics for ears made by Neuman. The mics are pointed into the ear canal to get as close to the ear drum as possible in order to replicate the users natural hearing. It uses the ear shape of the user. You could get some old Sony headphones and ruban some 4060’s to make it work, it won’t be all DPA pretty but it will function identically. I’d say capsules facing forward similar to the cup of the ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Documentary Sound Guy Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 I have no idea how well this works on a headset format, but I built a very effective binaural dummy head out of a styrofoam modelling head, two silicone ears (moulded from someone's actual ears) that I bought online, and a pair of ME-2 lavs plugged into Sennheiser G2s. It worked extremely well (like, really shockingly well). Total cost: About $150 (not counting the G2s). The main drawbacks: Noise floor, and styrofoam transmits vibration really, really well. I badly needed to build a shock mount for it. I'll buy a pair of LOM MicroUsi's to deal with the noise floor if they ever come back in stock. My understanding is that much of the immersive sense of space, direction, and depth that binaural generates comes from having the mic capsules buried in an ear canal so it can mimic an eardrum as closely as possible. I haven't tried the DPA 4560, but I'm skeptical that it would be as effective with the mic capsules so close to the surface of the ear. I would get them as deep in your ears as you can with out risking hearing damage, pointing outwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Clay Audio Posted February 26 Author Report Share Posted February 26 I'm gonna give this a shot and report back. I'll post audio results as well. I'm trying to capture some immersive POV audio for a dream sequence in a short film I'm doing audio for - hence the binaural needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 Sennheiser made a NB-2 "Headset Adapter" to use with y'own lav mic. I do not know if it is still available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Documentary Sound Guy Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 Are you sure binaural is what you need? The immersiveness of binaural sound only works through headphones; it's not a good general choice for a short film unless you have a way to ensure that the audience will be wearing headphones. It's not unusable through loudspeakers, but you don't even get much of a stereo image to speak up ... just two fairly muddy mono tracks. If you need immersive audio for sound design, you should probably looking at an ambisonic setup, not at binaural. Hopefully you already know this, and I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious. Just want to make sure you know what you are doing. The only film I've ever seen / heard of that did a binaural mix is 32 SOUNDS, which distributed headsets to the audience for its screenings (which were partially mixed live — very much an art piece rather than a conventional film). And even 32 SOUNDS duplicated the binaural section with an ambisonic mic for general screenings that didn't distribute headsets. It's worth googling this film for interviews with the sound designer if you are thinking of going the binaural route for a film soundtrack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Clay Audio Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 23 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said: Are you sure binaural is what you need? The immersiveness of binaural sound only works through headphones; it's not a good general choice for a short film unless you have a way to ensure that the audience will be wearing headphones. It's not unusable through loudspeakers, but you don't even get much of a stereo image to speak up ... just two fairly muddy mono tracks. If you need immersive audio for sound design, you should probably looking at an ambisonic setup, not at binaural. Hopefully you already know this, and I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious. Just want to make sure you know what you are doing. The only film I've ever seen / heard of that did a binaural mix is 32 SOUNDS, which distributed headsets to the audience for its screenings (which were partially mixed live — very much an art piece rather than a conventional film). And even 32 SOUNDS duplicated the binaural section with an ambisonic mic for general screenings that didn't distribute headsets. It's worth googling this film for interviews with the sound designer if you are thinking of going the binaural route for a film soundtrack. I appreciate the feedback! There are multiple POV dream-sequences throughout the film, and I thought binaural might be a good way to emulate that feeling (but yes, the effect is greater through headphones, and less so on speakers ). Obviously the effect won’t be perfect, but I think it can be cool nonetheless. The short film will have a 2.1 mix, so I’m not sure if Ambisonics will benefit me much in this particular case. An alternative approach would be to just recreate everything in post using sound design (but that’s less fun and less experimental). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Documentary Sound Guy Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 As long as you know what you are getting on speakers, go for it! I'm all for experimentation! The experience I've had with my binaural head is that it's absolutely magical through headphones, and totally pointless on speakers. Personally, I would favour good stereo or ambisonics recording techniques if you are chasing immersion for a 2.1 theatre mix. It kind of depends what you are recording though. In my opinion, immersion is about creating a sense of space, which ambisonics can help with even for a 2.1 mix. The idea is that you capture the sense of space via ambisonics, and then encode it to a 2 channel mix that contains as much of the spacial cues as can be reproduced in 2.1. Whatever you do, it's all about giving a sense of space. Ambisonics is perhaps the most "accurate" way of capturing that for loudspeakers, but maybe for you it's not about accuracy. Maybe you just rig a couple omnis as distance mics and mix those into a main stereo mix anchored by a mid-side boom over the dialogue. That gives you a traditional mono boom track, some directional content that matches the boom position, and two distant mics that help create the sense of space. I'm just trying to offer different options for you to play with ... I'm not the one recording, and I don't know nearly enough about what you are doing to offer any suggestions that are truly practical. I'm happy to see someone thinking how to capture this kind of immersion, so keep on experimenting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bishop Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 I work mainly as a spatial audio recordist and designer and have done this exact thing on many projects over the years (as well as ambisonics and other spatial audio shenanigans). I own the 4560 binaural headset as well, but, a pair of 4060’s is actually more versatile so I mostly take those for binaural in-ear recordings. The capsules are the same anyway. I spoke to DPA about this a few years ago. You don’t need to complicate it with wire. Just pick up some silicone ear hooks (the kind that hold the cable of in-ear headphones in place over the ear). Then use the foam windscreen around the mics to keep the capsules in place at the entrance to your ear canals. You don’t need to go far into your ear canals as that part of the head related transfer function will be added by the listener via on-ear, over-ear and most types of in-ear headphones anyway 😉 Technically, you should have the diaphragm element (if you take off the mic grids, the side with the holes) of both DPA’s facing outwards, but, in practice, it works fine to just put them in place in whatever orientation, so long as they stay in place and are equally arranged in both ears. You can use some tape instead of ear hooks and also some tape to secure the cable on your neck if you want. Last tip: they look ridiculous but pick up (or make) something like a pair of the ear-muff type Soundman windscreens (for their OKM binaural microphones) as other types of wind protection don’t give you enough dead air combined with a secure fit. As for speaker playback of binaural: I like it and think it has more depth than stereo, but, I know this is contentious! You could use an ambisonic microphone instead and decode for both binaural for headphones and stereo for speaker playback. But, it depends on where you want the greatest effect. Direct binaural recording is still more immersive than binaurally-decoded ambisonic, unless you include headtracking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Clay Audio Posted February 29 Author Report Share Posted February 29 59 minutes ago, Tim Bishop said: I work mainly as a spatial audio recordist and designer and have done this exact thing on many projects over the years (as well as ambisonics and other spatial audio shenanigans). I own the 4560 binaural headset as well, but, a pair of 4060’s is actually more versatile so I mostly take those for binaural in-ear recordings. The capsules are the same anyway. I spoke to DPA about this a few years ago. You don’t need to complicate it with wire. Just pick up some silicone ear hooks (the kind that hold the cable of in-ear headphones in place over the ear). Then use the foam windscreen around the mics to keep the capsules in place at the entrance to your ear canals. You don’t need to go far into your ear canals as that part of the head related transfer function will be added by the listener via on-ear, over-ear and most types of in-ear headphones anyway 😉 Technically, you should have the diaphragm element (if you take off the mic grids, the side with the holes) of both DPA’s facing outwards, but, in practice, it works fine to just put them in place in whatever orientation, so long as they stay in place and are equally arranged in both ears. You can use some tape instead of ear hooks and also some tape to secure the cable on your neck if you want. Last tip: they look ridiculous but pick up (or make) something like a pair of the ear-muff type Soundman windscreens (for their OKM binaural microphones) as other types of wind protection don’t give you enough dead air combined with a secure fit. As for speaker playback of binaural: I like it and think it has more depth than stereo, but, I know this is contentious! You could use an ambisonic microphone instead and decode for both binaural for headphones and stereo for speaker playback. But, it depends on where you want the greatest effect. Direct binaural recording is still more immersive than binaurally-decoded ambisonic, unless you include headtracking. thank you for the wealth of information! This is incredibly helpful! I can't wait to give this a shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bishop Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 No worries! Let us know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Clay Audio Posted March 11 Author Report Share Posted March 11 Well, I finally tested this out and I’m pretty pleased with the results. I actually simplified the setup quite a bit. I ended up just fitting DPA 4060 Hi Boost Grids into these earplugs: FLARE AUDIO CALMER EARPLUGS — https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B08KHHVZWB?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title I tried foam earpieces at first but the sound was way too muffled. These earplugs worked like a charm to keep the mics in place while letting the natural sound come through. Fitted the mics into those, put them into freshly cleaned ear canals, taped the cables to talent to prevent noise, hooked them up to a pair of wireless transmitters and let ‘er rip. For context: I rigged up the binaural headset to capture POV audio for a dream sequence where the main character is fearfully walking up a flight of stairs. Turned out pretty well. Listen on headphones for the full effect BINAURAL AUDIO SNIPPET.wav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Documentary Sound Guy Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 That is pretty impressive on headphones. Good job! I always marvel at how good binaural directionality sounds. Your in-ear rig worked well! I'm still not convinced by the effect through loudspeakers ... it sounds hollow to me, as if you were breathing into a box. But that's wearing my picky sound-guy hat ... I doubt a casual listener would object. Thanks for sharing your work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inspire Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 DPA 4060 Lavs are quite sensitive, can be taken from a short distance with them. Has anyone tried to record with the usual stereo- instead Binaural Stereo, what topic is here, but as A-B Stereo. I think you can use two DPA 4060’s for A-B Stereo if put them to reasonable distance from each other. Since they are with the omni characteristic, it could work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 On 3/20/2024 at 2:42 AM, The Documentary Sound Guy said: That is pretty impressive on headphones. Good job! I always marvel at how good binaural directionality sounds. Your in-ear rig worked well! I'm still not convinced by the effect through loudspeakers ... it sounds hollow to me, as if you were breathing into a box. But that's wearing my picky sound-guy hat ... I doubt a casual listener would object. Thanks for sharing your work! As you may know, DPA sells a headset with two 4060 miniature mikes for the purpose of binaural recording. There’s a page on its website about converting to stereo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHB Posted March 24 Report Share Posted March 24 Martin Mitchell, here in the UK, https://martinmitchellsmicrophones.wordpress.com/2023/08/ tried a pair of Roland CS-10EM Binaural Microphones/Earphones last August, and added a couple of recordings to his web-page. These Roland earbud mics cost only about £80 (US$100) ..and I've just seen a used pair on eBay for £60 (US$75). The quality is really good (I have a pair), but - as DocSoundGuy says - although played back thro' earbuds the sound is immersive, with over-ear cans instead, or standard loudspeakers, the effect is more dispersed, 'lighter-weight' or rather tinny. With buds stuffed in your ears, reproduction does sound as if the listener is really there, but without having that replay sound stuffed straight down your own ear canals, you miss much of the immersiveness. But they're a cheap and great way to experiment - instead of buying a Zylia 19-mic golfball! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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