redge Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Let me say at the outset that this post is intended to generate amusement, perhaps at my expense. Recently, I told a salesman for an audio shop that I am interested in buying an Aaton time code generator and a Tascam HD-P2 recorder. The salesman said that while his company is an Aaton rep (they sell the Cantar), he can't sell me, or even show me, an Aaton generator. Why? Because time code generation is a camera department issue, not a sound department issue, which means that if I want to buy an Aaton generator to jam a sound recorder, I have to speak to a different company. This means that if I want to test an Aaton generator with the Tascam sound recorder, I have to deal with two different Aaton distributors. As a neophyte, I am a little perplexed, but perhaps this division of labour makes sense to people who are more experienced. I'm looking for enlightenment, even if it triggers bemusement at my inability to understand the point of this jurisdictional divide. Cheers, R. Edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I'd call Abel Cine Tech in LA or NY and ask them. They've always been very helpful to me about Aaton code and InDaw etc issues. http://www.abelcine.com/. They sell BOTH the Cantar and the Aaton camera gear. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Philip, I can tell you that Gotham Sound, which sells both Aaton and Tascam sound gear, says that one must speak with Abel about Aaton time code generators because Aaton takes the position that its camera dealers, rather than sound dealers, should deal with sales of time code generation products. This is consistent with a few posts that I've seen on ramps that suggest that this division of authority is industry practice. I'm just curious to know whether a division that strikes me as counter-intuitive is real and, if so, what the rationale is. I want to stress that I'm asking this question because I just don't get it, which may well reveal my ignorance of practices that may have a perfectly sound basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Philip, I can tell you that Gotham Sound, which sells both Aaton and Tascam sound gear, says that one must speak with Abel about Aaton time code generators because Aaton takes the position that its camera dealers, rather than sound dealers, should deal with sales of time code generation products. This is consistent with a few posts that I've seen on ramps that suggest that this division of authority is industry practice. I'm just curious to know whether a division that strikes me as counter-intuitive is real and, if so, what the rationale is. I want to stress that I'm asking this question because I just don't get it, which may well reveal my ignorance of practices that may have a perfectly sound basis. I don't think it makes any sense either, except that Aaton is largely a camera company with a single audio product, and it is French. Draw your own conclusions. The upside is that the camera people are very smart about TC issues. Call Abel. Why did you decide on that TC generator, as opposed to Denecke or Ambient etc? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Philip, I'm going to use an Aaton A-Minima camera, which generates Aaton code (as I understand it, it is the only Aaton camera that will do this) to jam an Aaton SMPTE generator. Because the camera generates code, I can use the GMT-S rather than the Origin C. The GMT-S will be used, in turn, to jam a SMPTE recorder. I want to do this because I'm preparing for a documentary project that I want to shoot slateless. I spoke with Denecke, and got the impression that the company is very customer service oriented, but learned that their products do not support Aaton Code. As for Ambient, the cost of using an A-Minima to jam an Aaton GMT-S is quite a bit more attractive financially than using an Ambient box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Philip, I'm going to use an Aaton A-Minima camera, which generates Aaton code (as I understand it, it is the only Aaton camera that will do this) to jam an Aaton SMPTE generator. Because the camera generates code, I can use the GMT-S rather than the Origin C. The GMT-S will be used, in turn, to jam a SMPTE recorder. I want to do this because I'm preparing for a documentary project that I want to shoot slateless. I spoke with Denecke, and got the impression that the company is very customer service oriented, but learned that their products do not support Aaton Code. As for Ambient, the cost of using an A-Minima to jam an Aaton GMT-S is quite a bit more attractively financially than using an Ambient box. I emailed Abel about this box, and found that it won't do 23.976 code. I can see it working well for your A-Minima shoot, but @ $1000 I'd want it to be able to work in other situations down the line. But for what you are doing it seems like a slick box. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Milliken Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I was wondering if you have heard the Aaton minima, it is quite noisey, what kind of doco is it, will you be far away enough from the Camera? Regards Brian Milliken AMPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Brian, I've used the A-Minima so I'm familiar with how quiet/unquiet it is. However, I haven't used it while also recording sound. The spec is 29dB +/- 1. In about 10 days, I hope to test the camera with sound gear (Tascam HD-P2 and Schoeps CMC5/MK41 and maybe a rented CMIT 5U) indoors and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Milliken Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 If you have the chance please post your test results, I am sure it is of general interest. Regards Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Brian, On the issue that you raised (there are a few things that we want to test), it's a matter of determining what working distance we'll need between the camera and the subject, at various camera to microphone angles, to ensure that camera noise is not recorded. And of course we'll also test a couple of ways of dampening camera sound to see just how close we can get the camera to the subject. When we know what working distances we need, it's a matter of deciding what lens focal lengths we need to ensure that camera noise is not an issue. In other words, we're approaching sound recording and lens choice as interdependent issues. I don't know if that is how this issue is addressed on the kinds of projects on which participants on this site work, but if there is interest, sure I'll post a follow-up. There have been some very great films made with cameras that generate more than 29dB. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tourtelot Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Camera noise is a real issue, as is the time (+expense) to clean it out of a track. Can't think of a reason for taking it lightly. Sure, there have maybe been some great (great?) pictures made with noisy cameras, but if it was so okay, Mitchell would have never made the camera blimp. It musta bothered somebody! I resently did a picture that was shot with a beat old Moviecam SL and I heard shit from Post every day about the camera noise in the track. And then I'd hear shit from the Steadicam operator (dick-head) about how inconvienent the mag barney was, and from the DP (dick-head) about how the optical flat would degrade the image and from the Camera rental house about how "all SLs were noisy" (not true) and there you have it. It was a sound issue! I was told after the fact that those scenes "didn't sound very good." D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I don't know what I wrote that led you to suggest that I take camera noise lightly. The whole point of my post is that I'll be doing some tests. Anecdotal information about using the A-Minima as a synch sound camera happens to be very encouraging, but I am not relying on those anecdotes. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I have only worked on one production where the Aaton Minima was used. I don't know how noisy the camera is because it was inside the cab of a moving farm tractor (very noisy). I agree about the difficulty of having the camera department deal with noisy mags etc. I've been fortunate that many crews I've worked with take noise issues seriously, but there have been plenty of other times... "can't they fix that in post?" In the new King Kong there's a funny sequence where the sound recordist on the ship is complaining about the noise of the engines, the seagulls, the wind and the director says: you're the soundman, deal with it! I have a simple rule: I tell the AD/director/producer 3 times about a problem, stated clearly. if they don't get it by then, they don't care and there is little I can do about it. As far as on-set noise issues, what's with those battery powered Arri sun-gun style HMIs with the electronic ballasts, with a fan! in them. For 10 grand, you'd think they could come up with something better. They are also very noisy RF wise. I got burned a couple of times in car interior shots when the grips moved the ballast head cables around just before a take (after the rehearsal). Even star-quad didn't help. Any other experiences with these units? Chris Newton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 I have only worked on one production where the Aaton Minima was used. I don't know how noisy the camera is because it was inside the cab of a moving farm tractor (very noisy). I agree about the difficulty of having the camera department deal with noisy mags etc. I've been fortunate that many crews I've worked with take noise issues seriously, but there have been plenty of other times... "can't they fix that in post?" In the new King Kong there's a funny sequence where the sound recordist on the ship is complaining about the noise of the engines, the seagulls, the wind and the director says: you're the soundman, deal with it! I have a simple rule: I tell the AD/director/producer 3 times about a problem, stated clearly. if they don't get it by then, they don't care and there is little I can do about it. As far as on-set noise issues, what's with those battery powered Arri sun-gun style HMIs with the electronic ballasts, with a fan! in them. For 10 grand, you'd think they could come up with something better. They are also very noisy RF wise. I got burned a couple of times in car interior shots when the grips moved the ballast head cables around just before a take (after the rehearsal). Even star-quad didn't help. Any other experiences with these units? Chris Newton Similar to yours, plus on smaller shoots and docs the prevalence of "Joker" HMIs, which only work in flicker-free mode (whine) and have fans in the heads. The only solution is to take some diffusion out of the light and back it away, which no one ever wants to do. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 It's interesting how perceptions and expectations change with technology. The cinematographer Nestor Almendros considered a 30dB camera to be both noiseless and revolutionary. Almendros, who won an Academy Award for Days of Heaven and who was nominated for Sophie's Choice and two other films, makes several references in his autobiography to the 30dB 16mm Eclair-Coutant ACL. Speaking about a meeting on direct cinema, aka cinema verite, he says: "At that time the prototype of the light, portable camera without a blimp appeared, the noiseless Eclair-Coutant (ACL) 16mm, which allowed hand-held filming with direct sound. It was also the beginning of miniaturized portable sound equipment, the Nagra, the Perfectone, etc... I was able to exchange impressions with people...who shared my interest in the techniques of direct cinema. Leacock, Pennebaker, and the Maysles brothers were there from the States, Jean Rouch and Chris Marker from France, Claude Jutra and Michel Brault from Canada, Mario Ruspoli from Italy." "...I made about 25 documentaries...[with] an Eclair ACL 16mm camera...In France I discovered the wonders of direct sound simultaneously recorded on the portable Nagra." About Paris vu par, a film of sketches by Eric Rohmer, Jean Rouch, Jean Douchet, Jean-Luc Godard, Claude Chabrol and Jean Daniel Pollet, Almendros says: "Paris vu par... was shot in 16mm and enlarged to 35mm. We wanted to carry the techniques of the 16mm documentary to fiction films. This had become possible thanks to the new and then revolutionary Eclair-Coutant ACL 16 camera, which was portable and almost completely noiseless." About Idi Amin Dada, an extraordinary documentary Almendros says the Israelies studied before their raid on Entebbe, he says: "Idi Amin Dada could only have been in 16mm...The portable, compact [Eclair] with direct sound allowed us to be unobtrusive and remain at a discreet distance." At the same time, in his 35mm fiction work with people like Rohmer and Truffaut, Almendros and the French sound man Jean-Pierre Rhu were coping with cameras like the Cameflex (which sounds a lot like a helicopter), the Arri II-C and the Arri BL, all of which posed sound recording challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 True enough, although the audio they recorded was a bit lower-resolution. The irony is that as film cameras have become quieter ( a Panaflex is essentially silent @ 24 fps) the VIDEO camera (and lights) have become noisier! I think an A-Minima might be a great doc camera, as long as you've got a good number of mags to load up (mags which will be that much longer since no slates...). The images will be incredible compared to anything but a full-size HD video camera, certainly theatrical-ready. Are you shooting super16 16x9? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Philip, The A-Minima is a dedicated super 16 camera, which is how we will use it, although you can frame for regular 16. We have access to the camera and four 200 foot magazines (22 minutes), and we can of course rent more. The magazines are daylight load. The camera with a loaded magazine weighs 2 kilos (4.4 lbs). To that, you have to add the weight of a lens and any accessories. We'll be using the camera pretty stripped down, certainly for some of what we'll be doing, e.g. hiking on fairly rough terrain up an 800 meter mountain and shooting for a couple of days on an 80 foot fishing trawler.  There are going to be a few sound recording challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Philip, The A-Minima is a dedicated super 16 camera, which is how we will use it, although you can frame for regular 16. We have access to the camera and four 200 foot magazines (22 minutes), and we can of course rent more. The magazines are daylight load. The camera with a loaded magazine weighs 2 kilos (4.4 lbs). To that, you have to add the weight of a lens and any accessories. We'll be using the camera pretty stripped down, certainly for some of what we'll be doing, e.g. hiking on fairly rough terrain up an 800 meter mountain and shooting for a couple of days on an 80 foot fishing trawler. There are going to be a few sound recording challenges. Any backup? A Microtrak or something small? Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted March 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Hi again, The core of the film must be shot the first week of August, failing which there won't be a film. Flying in replacement gear during that week would be a big hassle and would cost 1-2 shooting days. For that week, we'll rent a duplicate recorder and a backup mic, and either a second A-Minima or an XTR Prod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Braxton Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 1. All DP's are deaf. I suspect that all second ACs have one ear drum punctured. First ACs have both eardrums punctured. It is a rite of passage initiation thing for cameramen. They also have to learn to hold the slate wrong too, covering the open of the sticks with their hand so some assistant troll in the bowls of the editing facility cannot match the close frame with the pop of the sticks. The better ones can do it one handed so the whole slate moves as the match frame is exposed blurring text and TC numbers equally. 2. All cameras are quiet when they are not running film through the gate. I know a guy who owns an older Aaton LTR and you can tell when it is running even if you are not looking at the operator's finger on the button. 3. Kidding aside, if you are using a sensitive mike like the Schoeps 41 or Neumanns or Sennheiser MKH's and you are in an enclosed area you are likely to record camera noise. Now it may be buried behind other sound and if you don't know what camera noise sounds like you (any listener) may subconsiously ignore it. But I bet if you are listening in a quiet edit room you will hear it. It seems at times like dialog is indistinct or muffled but you will be able to capture a truck horn or train or plane that is several thousand yards away like it was right outside your location. And then there are the crew members who think they can walk without making a sound. Especially when recording room tone. 4. Barneys (soft blimps) are not much good BUT better than nothing. It's not that much harder to operate with one on a camera and every little bit of attenuation is worth it when you are in post. And be aware that sound (camera noise) can radiate out the end of the lens, which of course you cannot completely enclose. So remember mic orentation vis a vis camera location. 5. And Aaton? Well like the man said, they are French. I approached them for assistance with a simple system for using vid assist for dailies with sync'd sound when they had an office in Burbank. They could not understand why I wanted to do it and eventually I dropped it. A couple years later they introduced a system that sort of did what I had in mind. It was about 18 grand and I think they sold one to Du Art in NYC. You could probably get it for a couple pizzas today if they can find it in their sub basement. 6. On several occasions when I was told not to worry or they could live with it, or in one case - "we have seen cars in other shots - car noise will be natural" (I swear that's the truth), I have rolled sound on the QT and recorded the director or whomever, asking them to repeat what they said. 7. A well known LA mixer told me that his first mixer job was a porno film shot by Nestor Almendros. Forgetable crap but beautiful images and no re-takes for sound. If your subject matter is interesting the audience will pay attention to the story and not be listening to the stuff on the track that is extranious. Anyway, don't believe those dB specs - your conditions will not match their test conditions. Do the best you can and make a good movie. Rob Braxton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted May 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Rob, I got a kick out of your post, and some good advice. I'll be testing the Aaton/Schoeps/702T combination for camera noise this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Braxton Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Thanks, always look on the brite side of (film) life. Anytime things suck on a show, I remember a friend who was 300 or so miles down in Mexico and the producer decided he did not want to pay for hotel rooms so he let five crew members go at 11 PM - sending them in a Jeep Wrangler all the way back to LA. Told them not to think they were fired, just laid off. When I was in film school in Chicago I worked for a barge company and did some maintence work on a tug named for Darryl Hannah (her dad owned the company - I never saw her in person, but I have been inside her :-). I can't imagine trying to get good sound on a big boat when the engines are running and you are bouncing around. Constant low freq hum / vibration all over, but saw Discovery ch show about fishing in Alaska so it is possible to get good sound. I would try wireless or hardwire lav (if not creating tripping hazard). A Countryman B6 is so small (like a BB) it is easy to pin on a shirt or jacket and not be seen. BTW- in a wet enviornment, a Schoeps will get cranky - lot of crackle noise. A low cut filter would be a good additionto your package - also a gvc elbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted May 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Hi Rob, Perhaps you are talking about a series out of Alaska called Deadliest Catch. I don't get this show in Canada, but when I was in New York a couple of weeks ago I saw some promos for it. I want to see an episode (it airs Tuesday nights in New York) and find out how they are doing the sound. Judging from the promo, I have a pretty good idea about the sound levels on the boat, and it is far from clear to me how they are dealing with engine noise. Also, Peter Schneider from Gotham Sound has given me the name of someone that I should speak with about recording on sailboats/ships on open ocean. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redge Posted May 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Scott, Thanks very much. I'll have to have a look at the response of those mics. I want to see Deadliest Catch because I want to hear how it compares, in terms of intelligibility, to something like the sound on the Volvo (formerly Whitbread) race. The sound quality on the long distance races is pretty awful. On the other hand, that is not necessarily a fault. Myself, I've sailed boats from dead calm (meaning that we weren't going anywhere fast, except in the direction of the tidal stream) to 50 knots. I think that there is a lot to be said for letting the wind velocity affect the sound. I don't feel the same about engine noise. In any event, I don't anticipate running into extremes, either of wind or engine noise, in Newfoundland in August. Mostly, we're going to run into a lot of what city people would consider silence, except for the sound of eagles and pilot whales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Braxton Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 I suppose I could burn a DVD off air of Deadliest Catch and send it to you. Email me - arby@insightbb.com - my isp is upgrading something today and my email is not working at the moment - they say mid day tommorrow I will be able to send/receive again. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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