studiomprd Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 crap happens! people all die, and it is happening every day. in the last year, the number of casualties in Afghanistan has doubled, and we are escalating this war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Really? Will you still feel the same way if your wife and kids are on the next plane that explodes? I will. Influenza (regular old flu) kills many, many more people each year in this country than "terrorists" do. I'd rather live my life not worrying about "terrorists," than running around scared thinking that every person around every corner is out to get me. I'll take affordable health care over being afraid to live my life any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Obama and the Democratic Congress in one year have raised the deficit to the highest in history with huge spending and entitlement legislation. RL Ummm... Unless I'm mistaken, the deficit and national debt was already the highest in history when Obama took office. Granted it's getting worse, but sometimes that's what it takes to help build momentum and hope for the future. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Really? Will you still feel the same way if your wife and kids are on the next plane that explodes? Absolutely. Replace "killed by a terrorist" with "hit by a bus", "killed in a tornado", "killed in a car wreck", etc. Shit happens. You'll never achieve zero risk, so why spend your life in misery worrying about it? BTW, the more liberties we give up in the name of 'protection', the more they win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted January 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Robert, You can watch the "National Debt" ticking up live right here: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ RL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 and you can watch the cost of war(s) here: http://www.costofwar.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 and you can watch the cost of war(s) here: http://www.costofwar.com/ C'mon Jeff, Don't you know it's ok to spend money to kill people, but not to make them healthy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted January 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 John, Is government supposed to make us healthy or is that our personal responsibility? RL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Mantlo Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Granted it's getting worse, but sometimes that's what it takes to help build momentum and hope for the future. Robert I'd like to see precedent on this statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Mantlo Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 I will. Influenza (regular old flu) kills many, many more people each year in this country than "terrorists" do. I'd rather live my life not worrying about "terrorists," than running around scared thinking that every person around every corner is out to get me. I'll take affordable health care over being afraid to live my life any day. Well if that's the case, I'm not sure why we got so excite during WWII. Everyone should of just "took their chances". Can't wait to see what happens with Iran when Israel just takes "their chances". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 John, Is government supposed to make us healthy or is that our personal responsibility? RL Are they supposed to play police in countries they destabilized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 I'm not sure why we got so excite during WWII. Could have had something to do with a definable entity bombing Pearl Harbor. But that's just a guess.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted January 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 John, Can you change the subject to avoid answering a question? RL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 John, Can you change the subject to avoid answering a question? RL I was just reaching into left field for another irrelevant question since that was the trend. For the record, I have no idea. But it doesn't seem any sillier to me to spend money on that as opposed to what they do now. Plenty of countries provide health care for their citizens and it seems to work well. It just cracks me up to watch people bitch about spending money on health care, but not seem the least bit concerned about the trillions we're spending in Iraq... for what purpose? It's interesting, in fact, that a discussion about the TSA even got to this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 even more http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,582632,00.html Absolutely amazing paranoia. A guy locks himself in a toilet and they scramble 2 F-16's another guy hassels a woman passenger and they scramble 2 F-15's. What purpose is there in scrambling the fighters, to shoot the plane down and kill everyone on board? That would be doing a suicide bombers job for him. We have given up our freedoms and liberty for a false sense of security while we shake in our boots at every shadow. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Lestage Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 For the record -- Yes, I believe that we should have universal healthcare -- not some half-assed public option, but a full-blown, in-your face, "we'll wipe-your-ass plan"... A no American's behind left-behind plan! If we are truly "the greatest nation on Earth", then let's fucking prove it and lead by example. Stop the war machine, bring the troops home and start taking care of our own. If we can't fix our own car, we have no business taking our happy horseshit show on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted January 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Brent, That is exactly what our government will do to you; they'll be cleaning your shorts and your bank account too. As recently revealed on December 25, 2009, the government's "excellent" ability to run Homeland Security, the CIA, FBI and the TSA proves that they are going to do one hell of a great job with our health care. I know you live in "Kennedy country", but you really have that much faith in Washington? RL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasony Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 All this discussion reminds me of a comment I read somewhere online that seems to sum up so much of the healthcare debate lately: (paraphrased) "Even if it causes us to go bankrupt as a country, it is our moral responsibility to be sure every singe American citizen has health coverage" To which I always reply "and then what"? What happens when we ARE bankrupt, the producers can no longer produce, and the entire system falls apart because the country is bankrupt? Is a short term moral victory worth such a long term cost? I've never received a cogent response. Geeze, it sucks being an adult. Oh to be a teenager and be able to ignore all this junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Lestage Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Jasony -- First of all, we are already bankrupt as a nation -- and it ain't because of universal healthcare. RL, I think that you are forgetting who the "government" really is and who it is designed to represent. What's your solution? Be apathetic? Remain ignorant to the facts? Let private enterprise, complete with no system of checks/balances or regard for the welfare of people beyond profit, run the show? BTW, where I choose to live does not define my faith in anything. I have lived in your neighborhood "the land of fruits and nuts" as well. I put my faith in people that share my values, which is not to say that I haven't been let down before. If our system of government and accountability is broken, we need to fix it. If we can't collectively agree on how to fix it, it will remain broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 All this discussion reminds me of a comment I read somewhere online that seems to sum up so much of the healthcare debate lately: (paraphrased) "Even if it causes us to go bankrupt as a country, it is our moral responsibility to be sure every singe American citizen has health coverage" To which I always reply "and then what"? What happens when we ARE bankrupt, the producers can no longer produce, and the entire system falls apart because the country is bankrupt? Is a short term moral victory worth such a long term cost? I've never received a cogent response. Geeze, it sucks being an adult. Oh to be a teenager and be able to ignore all this junk. We are bankrupt as a country having funded a war with no return on our "investment". Why are so many people objecting to "investing" in the health of our citizens? California is reducing the number of days of schooling required for our children to help close the gap on our budget deficit. It's this shortsightedness that weakens our country. Our investment should be in ourselves. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasony Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 "Jasony -- First of all, we are already bankrupt as a nation -- and it ain't because of universal healthcare." With respect, this is the kind of reply I typically get. When a person goes through personal bankruptcy, the first step is to STOP SPENDING MONEY. On everything that doesn't immediately relate to subsistence (think minimum housing and food). Again, with respect, your solution above is akin to saying "as long as I'm bankrupt, I might as well charge up a few more credit cards!" I agree that the ongoing wars are and have been expensive and need to be addressed, but the proper solution to that is not "well, we've already spent ourselves silly on a war, so let's do it again on something else!". If, as you say (and I agree) that we are out of money as a country (which was different from my meaning of "bankrupt" in my post below, but that can pass for now), then how can the rational argument be to spend more money- stupendously more? Let's please look a few years down the road to the logical end of these arguments and figure out some rational, long-term, sustainable solution to this whole mess. And by "mess", I mean current spendcrazy fiscal policy of printing multiple trillions of dollars to throw at whatever large-scale issue du jour is popular (war, healthcare, bailouts, etc). Can't we all agree that the money will, MUST run out at some point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasony Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Hi Brent, Since I quoted you, I thought it was fair to say that my response was more to the overall philosophy that I saw inherent in your quote. Upon re-reading the rest of your post, I realized that you might mistake my response as being specifically to you. It wasn't it was directed more to people who say that we should just keep spending and spending with no limits. You seem to agree with this. Apologies and hope it's okay that I used the quote to illustrate my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted January 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Brent, "RL, I think that you are forgetting who the "government" really is and who it is designed to represent" The government is elected by the people and is for the people - but it has not been that way for a long time. Those in power think they know better and refuse to listen to what the the citizens want. "What's your solution? Be apathetic? Remain ignorant to the facts?" If you read this thread that I started and many of my other posts on Healthcare, you would know that I have proposed solutions. I am far from apathetic and very aware of the facts of the issues, not the spin or the talking points of each political party. "Let private enterprise, complete with no system of checks/balances or regard for the welfare of people beyond profit, run the show?" I believe in a balance of good regulations and free enterprise and yes, profits, that drives innovation and JOBS. A limited government is best. The federal and state governments have lots of entitlement programs to care for the "welfare of people". "If our system of government and accountability is broken, we need to fix it. If we can't collectively agree on how to fix it, it will remain broken." That's why I am looking so excitedly to November 2010, 2012, to "fix" this broken system. It is the voters that are the ones who will be making the "change" that was falsely sold to us in 2008. Regards, RL PS We've beaten this topic to death, I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Lestage Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Hi Jasony, No apology necessary, though your concern is appreciated... I certainly agree with your stating that there is a VERY finite amount of money and resources left to do all these great (and not so great) things our nation is pursuing. There is a huge burden that we ALL are carrying and, for once, are beginning to feel the pinch of so many bad decisions -- those that we have allowed to happen, and those we continue to allow to happen. Despite this huge burden, we still can't collectively agree on what our values are. How sad is that? I am of the mindset that you are only as strong as the weakest link in the chain. I believe in a system of distributing [fairly] the wealth of this great nation right down to the lowest common denominator. Otherwise, why bother providing for a government of, for and by the people? If Barack Obama had kept his promise of CHANGE, he would have immediately pulled the plug on war spending, brought the troops home, and focused nearly all of his attention and resources on the domestic agenda and universal health care. But, as we are witnessing, very little has changed. Meanwhile, our relentless appetite for consumerism has kept us comfortably numb and distracted. Perhaps, as we emerge from our cocoon of voyeuristic apathy and verisimilitude, we will begin to get more involved and demand more from our government, our leaders and each other. I remain hopeful that we will someday agree [again] on what we truly value, and learn to effectively pursue our goals for the benefit of all our citizens. For now, at least, we have established a dialogue (for better or worse) here on jwsound.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Lestage Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 Goodnight and Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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