The Immoral Mr Teas

19 hours ago, Christian Spaeth said:

I agree that 7 ms doesn't matter in relation to picture sync, but I have dialed in a few ms of delay on some inputs to compensate for differences in distance when mixing boom and lavs. For some wide shots it did help me achieve an appropriately sounding mix.

No problem if it helps a decent mix track. We will still if necessary manually correct sync.

But it makes me think of the two reasons that delay has been (very welcomely) introduced into equipment. One is that in controlled circumstances like music recording delay according to distance can be measured and calculated. The other is that equipment where delay is expected and known can be accurately compensated for.

In all cases, beyond glorious mono, we have a certain, if often negligible, determination of phase and delay we might have to be aware of, but if it sounds ok ...

On 2 May 2017 at 2:08 PM, RPSharman said:

I don't set delay in anything. But that's just me. Who needs to do maths at work every day? Not me!

Forgive me for jumping straight in without reading all the threads so far but I take it this is a question from production sound to post production sound. As the latter, as a dialogue editor, I (and the rerecording mixers) welcome iso tracks for very many reasons today. I would generally take a 'master' track as a sync base and in most cases this is the boom (boom no1) track as it hopefully (sounds best and) best reflects the direct-ambient sound that the sound team has managed to get to match the (camera) picture. It is often slightly wrong but that's why we do our jobs to correct stuff.

As a general rule, dialogue editing, I take the 'master track' (the boom) and pull the isos into sync with that, manually. There's not a shortcut - it either takes a little time ... or it's not important enough to do. Thinking to do it in advance is (probably) pointless extra work to no effect.

I am in absolute favour of the higher level recorders being able to offset and apply delay but this is of use (indeed necessary) for live recording applications where for example front or spot microphones have to be delayed (to a mathematically determined amount) to match room or surround rigs in non-perfect situations.

As someone said, thinking too much into it.

Jez

The shipping looks a little steep! Ha ha ha ha ha ho ho ho hurghh .......

I would look for a suitably wide-hole windscreen for a large barrelled mic (U87? Soundfield MK5 perhaps?) and possibly fit that over the MKH windscreens. Another possibility would be to just pull a small diameter rycote jammer over the two MKH windscreens (not the full size things, the consumer camera mic type)?

Jez

Superb Nagra pic Mike! Should be in the Nagra Images thread - still have the 4.2?

21 minutes ago, The Immoral Mr Teas said:

Daniel and I were talking earlier today about him - I hadn't heard the sad news. For me the first and stand out film was Swimming To Cambodia, with the great Spalding Gray, which in its way gave the template for Stop Making Sense. Two films from my youth which meant a fair bit to me.

Jez x

And I've just realised that Swimming To Cambodia came after Stop Making Sense, in fact several years. My brain might be jelly but my suit still fits.

Daniel and I were talking earlier today about him - I hadn't heard the sad news. For me the first and stand out film was Swimming To Cambodia, with the great Spalding Gray, which in its way gave the template for Stop Making Sense. Two films from my youth which meant a fair bit to me.

Jez x

Not really complaining (for once) but watching the original Spring in a Small Town (heh, instead of replying to my gud fellas on Equipment etc) on UK tv Channel Film Four. Not too sure of the political situation, but 1948 mainland filmmaking. It's been cleaned up but to me just sounds tinny. Far cleaner than I've heard it before to be sure - ie no hiss. Just wondering though, between ourselves here, people used to listening to awful condition old soundtracks and cleaned up ones, what are the general preferences?

I really don't mean to criticise this particular example (which in my Chinese dvd and previous viewings are hiss central) but when extreme noise reduction is applied and it alters the natural character of the sound to such a degree (albeit enhancing the actual clarity) are we pro or contra?

Kind of like the Rosemary's Baby thread ... and the picture folk suffer worse than us but don't seem to mind?

Jez

On 24 April 2017 at 2:08 PM, Jim Rillie said:

I think they must have been pre-DT48 if there was such a thing. I experienced DT48s a year or two later. The cartilage in my ears is still trying to recover from all those Beyers, LOL.

I think DT48s prefigure sound monitoring - it wouldn't have been too many years to go before they celebrated their 100th birthday if they'd kept them going (I think they were recently discontinued?)

I never owned a pair but always (and still) crave them for their style. Meanwhile I've used DT 100s and 150s for years, and actually find them quite 'comfortable' for the shorter periods I use them. My open DT 550s however are super comfortable and sound great - happy to edit wearing them for hours.

A pair of DT48s, cheap from the local hi-fi emporium who had got them in for a customer who hated them and gave them back, lasted me for years, with a complete refurb from Beyer UK after about twenty years. Shortly after, they were stolen from a committee room at The Houses Of Parliament.

On 25 April 2017 at 0:31 PM, soundmanjohn said:

A little power and a few pints of Camerons and it is amazing the depths people will stoop to.

4 hours ago, al mcguire said:

all things come to those who wait

I'll probably wait for the balanced outputs and the digital in then. Then wait a little longer for two sets of balanced outputs to interface quad speakers. I'm sure I can think of other things I can be waiting on ...

J x

2 hours ago, Jim Rillie said:

and a set of really uncomfortable ear-clamp Beyer headphones.(roundish with grey hard foam rubber earpads, IfIRC)

Presumably the ubiquitous DT48 Jim? Splendid things!

2 hours ago, Jim Rillie said:

My first owned recorder was a Stellavox Sp7, 

Gorgeous! Whilst I'm the proud owner-user of two stereo Nagras I've always loved the size and style of their neighbour-rival.

Jez

25 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

would be helpful to know what is your line of work, but you could go from the unbalanced 3.5mm output to two unbalanced XLR and feed that into the camera - you need to be careful that the 3.5mm doesn't get unplugged and that you don't get noise in longer cable runs, plus you'll need to deal with the lower output when matching to camera, but for scratch it should generally be fine. 

If it's for production audio, you'd likely be better off with a mixer/recorder with balanced outputs.

... or indeed an F4 / F8 ?

I was interested when I first glanced at the spec in using it as an interface for Nuendo and Protools, then saw the '4 out' would be through a stereo 3.5 and presumably a headphone amp. So not so suitable a feed for the Genelecs...

Still, for folks wanting an essentially 4 track FX recorder, well built with nice preamps, with additional feed for DSLR and a TC in, metadata etc, it is a contender.

On 20 April 2017 at 2:23 PM, daniel said:

I'm curious to know what was the latest product to market with 'T' power. If it was over 10 years ago I think you and I should hold a memorial service for this venerated mic powering over some beers, with Nick in the Wenlock. I'm thinking it's an SQN 5s which was launched 2006 but I'm sure I will corrected on this, in which case we should celebrate and drink to the good health of this venerated mic powering over some beers, with Nick in the Wenlock.

 

A wonderful idea! I'm still recovering from the Binder - bender ...

I was actually looking through the specs looking to see if there was 8v powering for my MKH104s but didn't find anything. Whilst we're on the subject I recall someone here doing mods backdating CMC6xt and MKH P48 to CMC4 and MKH T-12 spec. I have a couple 8040s that need doing ...

On 19 April 2017 at 7:15 PM, Christian Spaeth said:

This should make quite a bunch of folks who are about to buy an F8 for smaller jobs stop and think again. 

Think again, yes, but I think it is more a competitor for the F4 and 701D. (The MP6 that is). Still fewer inputs/pres than the F8 which could swing the vote for some. Also the F4 and tascam both have some features that might be desired, and I think the cheaper DR70 also still holds its place.

All in all however, a most welcome addition to the budget / backup (and travel / fx) machines on offer (especially the MP6).

Jez

3 hours ago, daniel said:

Personally I prefer to use XLR, but it is possible to make a quite low profile RA TRS and because the connector can rotate it's 'self orientating'™.  Interesting they only put combos on the mixpre-6 and not the 3.

Great trademark, Dan. I'll use it if I'm allowed?

The whole thing does look a bit like a toy, like the tascam and zoom products it will rival. But a great looking toy and I want one too. Nice and small and light. So the combo inputs are actually welcome to me since I have a few looms to TRS as well as the regular XLRs. Love the multiple powering options too - good for 7-series owners to use their L bats, as well as AA for ... me! All in all, the 6 ticks a lot of my boxes and since a Sonosax is still beyond my means I'll continue to look at this one as it goes into production. Could there be a super-advanced input setting mode to activate T-powering?

Jez

30 minutes ago, Bogdan said:

 Hopefully there's no hum where I go :))

If you're in a van others will be in vans too = traffic = traffic noise.

Even if you're well off road in a 4x4 others will be riding around on motorbikes.

Whatever, I would plan for some kind of 'away from the van' kit, if even a b-kit of small recorder with 48V mic pres and AA powering.

Jez

50 minutes ago, daniel said:

Re: AAs - you can make a AA battery pack for almost any recorder (whether or not the recorder takes AAs). (the rest snipped but all good reading, thanks)

 

DPAs are lovely mics (never heard this contended), but if you don't have to rig.  (snip) ....

A pair of new 4060s is going to set you back 6-800gbp and as SMJ mentions in his article, lapel mics are to an extent "regarded as expendable" eg. they wont hold there value like a larger mic. This is good if you're buying S/H, not so good if you decide to resell a pair you bought new. If the cost of the DPAs rule out buying an MKH series (or similar) but the OKM allow you to get an MKH as well, then for me it's a no brainer.

Hi Dan! As you know I liked the AA powering (albeit temperamental with alkalines!!) with the R4 as I do with the SD 302 etc and the 633: all of course with 12V (main) external powering options. It really can be a life saver for travelling FX recording (where the machine may not be rolling for entire days draining 48V etc) even if one would preferably be using external power. I also like the choice of power for the new R4+ but would have loved a 'backup sled' to run the machine off AAs that fit the machine slot ... Although it's the first time I've mentioned it I think (and I would perhaps be its eventual sole user!)

If anyone knows of a (non DIY) AA to 12V box for hirose/xlr4 machines I would love to see one and probably buy one. Kortwich perhaps? I've looked but never found.

DPAs - for me the versatility - covert, binaural and spaced, lowered into daft places, etc. So, nothing really to compare (but I used other lavs before I finally went DPA, true).

Happy personally to consider anything second hand, including DPAs (which are common in ex-show sell offs at far less than the new price). Though I would look for microdot terminated, then buy the DAD xlr adapters and also the microdot extension cables (at least one of them) for wider arrays etc. The standard 'lav' length of the cable is too short often at about 2m for me.

You'll be using DPAs forever too (as granted you will MKHs) - so a good 'investment', new or SH.

Jez

22 hours ago, daniel said:

Imho, not worth it. Less 'Into the Wind' more a guy gassing on about himself while camera op does his best to make a flat landscape look interesting. I kept thinking about Casper David Fredericks for some reason I'm not sure I could explain - maybe as there seemed to be an aspiration to encompass some meditative romantic element but it never got there for me. I don't even remember noticing much about the wind recording except for a bit at the end which faded into music (yergh!)

I did enjoy it, and am familiar with Tim's radio docs. I actually took the programme to be more tongue in cheek and pretty funny, in the 'style' of 1970s / 80s classic BBC2 / early Channel 4 than today's tendency to take Sound Art SERIOUSLY.

J x

23 hours ago, Bogdan said:

I will test the DPAs and compare them with some other omni mic as soon as I decide which one.

As I said, I left my budget mindset at the door. I've learned a lot since I started this thread...I adapted to new possibilities.

At the moment I am looking for 2 professional mics as a basic kit. I've already explained what I want to achieve. I expect them to cost up to 2k...preferably in the realms of 1.5k. But budget is relative at the moment. If I can invest in two amazing mics that give me enough flexibility for some years to come, then I would have no problem extending my budget. 

So far I haven't been recommended an awful lot of microphones.

The DPA 4060s are not 'like' anything else currently around. They are as I've said my number one choice for travel (and, for me, for FX and ambient recordings). They're not a substitute for other omnis such as eg MKH 8020s (although one could use them as a 'substitute'). They sound great, nothing their size sounds that good and natural, and you can hide them well if needed, and you can stick them in the wildest of places. They've been absolutely great in 40+ degrees C, below zero, 100% humidity and dry.

I don't really have much idea of what you're trying to record nor do I think do any of the rest of us - which is why the thread is bombarded with so many ideas (though that in itself is not a bad thing). I originally thought you were looking to record near silent environments (or at least those free of obvious man-made noises like traffic, aeroplane and city-hum). Now I kind of think the environment is perhaps irrelevant (for nature anyway) - you want to record interesting noises in an outdoor equivalent of an anechoic chamber ... but in stereo? My own experience of isolated noises (albeit for me generally 'unwanted') in super quiet environments were either natural (a bird call, a yak-past) or an annoyance (a chainsaw starting up several miles away and ruining yet another long careful setup). Interesting noises (prayer wheel, man made water mill feature, rush of air and bubbles in a geological fault) might just be recorded carefully to minimise unwanted noise. MS recording might well be ideal for you (even with an omni mid for certain sounds), but without understanding what you actually intend recording, in what manner (always ready? careful setups?) and what the final 'release format' might be, I cannot 'recommend' any recording technique over another. (I would certainly consider MS for eg ethnographic/song collection with 'side' for the casual listener and M for the expert ... And MSM for eg a music documentary with radio and tv versions in the works)? Then there's good old fashioned M ... without the S! I record a lot in mono, especially the interesting noises - perhaps 40% mono, 40% 2-track and 20% other, but don't hold me to that!

But with a further (!) £1500-£2000 to spend, I might recommend a pair of MKH 8040s. At least they work well for me. I didn't ask for recommendations when I bought them though - I got them as soon as they came out based on a long long familiarity with the MKH series (MKH50, 30 etc). They've also been faultless in hot/cold/wet/dry as above.

I'll recommend in addition the Countryman B6 microphone, in its 10mV/Pa version, for use as a hydrophone. Along with the DPAs it goes on most journeys, even though I have a real hydrophone. Another couple of hundred quid though, so only if you planned water recordings, which haven't been mentioned.

-

I'd probably look to try (or even just buy, and try whilst learning) a few pairs of much cheaper mics; maybe the wide omnis mentioned very early on, maybe octavas or se electronics with interchangeable cardioid, hyper and omni capsules. Or at least a pair, which can later become a spare/ surround/ danger set. Many might disagree with me here: it's up to you though. The (discontinued??) LSD 2 two capsule mic looks an interesting budget option (like a Neumann SM69) for a multi pattern (especially for MS or blumlein crossed 8s - or together with an omni for 3-channel ambisonic WXY) - but obviously only if you were sufficiently interested in these techniques - and I've no idea how it sounds, nor handling or whatever. A one-point stereo mic (I have the older AT822) can be a neat quick solution for lots of things too, even piggy-backed to a better mono third central channel. A multi-pattern LDC (like above LSD2 budget option) might be an option for 'occasional' fig8 use, as Constantin mentioned. One can recommend forever!

-

Finally for now, stands or poles, bags (rucksack or covert or just comfortable), cables, windshielding and powering are all essential to plan thoroughly. Personally I like an AA backup for powering as I've said before, even if only a separate mini recorder, but I favour the Zoom F8 partly for this (over some more 'professional' options). Just make sure you'll not be found unable to record at all. And quiet clothing ... search this topic elsewhere here.

Jez

Well it's too complicated to try and quote individually now but I'll say I'm agreeing especially with Chris and John for this newly renamed thread. There is good (and I think compatible rather than contrasting) advice and ideas coming from all directions. I also don't want to 'kill' the thread as there may well end up being a lot of good advice for future browsers to be had here.

In the case of yourself Bogdan, being the original poster, I'm going to stick my neck out since I believe most here will agree with me. I strongly think the best thing you can do right now in preparation for the recording tour is to look around Edinburgh for a chance of spending the next couple of months learning and practicing recording technique from other people somehow. Look to see if any local studios do either evening classes or occasional days of instructional courses: the studio I worked at in the 90s held week-long courses two or three times a year for local musicians and anyone interested in beginning recording technique; I've heard of other studios doing similar to fill downtime days.

If this is at all possible you will experience far more in practical circumstances and it will help you begin to understand what techniques might suit your interests (pleasure in technique itself is important I believe), the kind of sounds you are interested in recording and in what environmental/acoustical situation, and finally, also importantly, the manner in which you are expecting or hoping to present or disseminate the recordings - or work further with them.

You've mentioned I think having friends of friends with eg MKH mics so they're a good starting point to ask about things. If you can't find a part time or evening course in a local studio or college (which I find unlikely) call up a few studios or try to find a local engineer, tell them of your plans and beg them to let you sit in on a few sessions (voice over recordings, bands, classical recordings, as much variation as you can). I think you'll probably get more from a studio environment as concerns experiencing a wide mix of recording technique than the likes of 'us' (since we're "filmmakers" and have many specialist concerns which come before stereo recording techniques) but say 'yes please' to any opportunity that arises.

After a few weeks of practice, say you managed to find a weekly evening class or sat in on occasional days, you'll at least be able to say, "I want to record mono and X-Y" (or LCR / quad / ambisonics / MS / WXY-MS / MSM / underwater / infinite screen) - and ask a new bunch of questions and be able to make your own qualified decision based on the answer(s).

In my opinion whatever mic or what recorder you end up buying is going to be of hardly any concern to the recordings (beyond your comfort) nor to me at least as a listener. "What mic did you use" is rarely my first question if I have questions at all.

Best, Jez

Well I just watched Tim Dee's TV programme which Daniel pointed out earlier this week on BBC4, Into the Wind.

Half an hour following a bloke with a rycote across The Wash. Delightful. And you'll probably come away from it wanting to use a Nagra Seven (unless it was an LB?)

Quoting Grant (re Bernie Krause book):

Cheers Grant, I will have a look at this. I was actually wondering if there were any decent books on nature recording (as opposed to film or music or sfx etc). Not that I'm particularly looking but for the sake of perhaps pointing out fairly obvious things which we may not immediately think of (electricity for instance). I realised that the only book (out of tons of stuff going back to the 1920s) that I had along these lines was the 1970s Wildlife Sound Recording by John B Fisher. That really only comes off the shelf when I need to read the excellent chapter on parabolas, although coming from a birdwatcher it's a decent (albeit of its time) guide for wildlife (and insect) recording. I have come across far more online - nature sounds.org (from memory ... not a link) is probably a good resource and starting point.

Pertaining to the art of 2-channel recording in general I guide many to Michael Williams' The Stereophonic Zoom, available through the rycote website, which explains recording angles based on pickup patterns which many take for granted (ORTF, IRT for instance).

But I mean to ask here if anyone else has either links to or names of reading material which would be of interest to Bogdan and the rest of us, please chime in. Thanks again Grant!

Jez

4 hours ago, Bogdan said:

I would probably like to own 3 main mics (excluding DPA lavalier mics). I would probably use 2 at a time for stereo. The 3rd one I would use to change the setup and for more flexibility.

So basically 1 shotgun - 1 figure of 8 and then an additional superhypercardio :))

(snip) ... stereo ambient recordings.

(snip again)

As a personal preference I would love a more bassy mic to use for my voice from time to time and for more bassy sounds (like the rumbles of a volcano). MKH 50 seems to do a good job for that?

 I most likely wont record birds that much...

A shotgun, hyper and fig 8 is an excellent basic kit for recording MS dialogue based stuff (a documentary for instance) but you're limited immediately to MS or mono - ie a million miles from "stereo ambient recordings" (save MS ones) or super quiet nature type sounds that I believe was the original intention on post number one.

Assuming you're aiming for 2 channel stereo in general (very many of us were only aiming for 2- rather than 3- or 4-channel, or b-format because for many years multichannel recorders were rare or expensive outside studios) I would think a pair of cardioids would be a starting point, then learn what you can do with this basic kit. If you're sure you want to experiment with mid-side, get an 8 in addition. The 'budget' is already increasing ... I agree with Chris once again - start learning by doing. I don't think you need to outlay so much to start recording. Putting the mic in the right place is far more important than anything, knowing how the tools are responding to the subject and the environment, etc.

For instance, the 'bassy-ness' of a hyper is due to proximity effect (and this is even more pronounced on a fig 8, which have been used for decades in radio studios for this reason). You will not get close to a volcano. If you did, a hydrophone might be a better choice to tackle the sulphurous gasses. An omni (without built in roll off like the cheap lav capsules mentioned earlier) would be the right choice to capture the bass.

Jez

4 hours ago, Bogdan said:

So far MKH 8040 MKH 30/40/50 and Schoeps mics seem to be mentioned alot.

 

That's really because JW group is focused on film and broadcast sound. It's the tools we use. Ask nature recordists and they may well say (eg) MKH 20 / 8020s (or other omnis). For dialogues, apart from shotguns of various types, the tools of our trade are essentially the Schoeps MK41 and the Sennheiser MKH50, and for those recording MS they'll probably reach for fig 8 (and perhaps cardioid) mics from the same manufacturers. Because the quality is up with the best and in the case of Sennheiser are considered bulletproof in adverse conditions (heat and moisture).

1987 I think - Sony Pro Walkman

1992 at a guess - Sennheiser ME 40 and ME 80

1997 - Nagra IV-S

The item I 'desired' for the longest time (at least a decade) before I finally got one and could forego the DIY - a proper Rycote windshield and windjammer.

I still have them all in excellent working order, Sony Pro repaired once in the nineties.

Jez

10 hours ago, AnuarYahya said:

http://micbooster.com/clippy-em172-microphones/99-xlr-stereo-clippy-em172-microphone.html

these look like an interesting option. Very low self noise, and very cheap. 

Freq response 60 Hz ?