Microphones in Feature Films

[PeterE]

Right now it is educational and building up knowledge and confidence for future projects.

 

When I came across your website I felt it is like a place for "an experienced old dogs" who been involved in cinema sound productions.

 

And I could no find anything better.

So I felt it is a good place to learn from the best.

 

Right now I'm not involved in any projects but I'm planning, once I have enough information of doing it in right way.

[PeterE]

Can some one give a movie with bad sound and bad mixing and a good one to compare both?

[Jay Rose]

Is there a magazine for a cinema sound people, like "American Cinematographer" where they talk about mixing and sound equipment been used on sets?

 

Yes. CAS Quarterly. Like American Cinematographer, it's published by the craft society for its field. And like AC, the tech and how-to articles are full of useful info, written by or with the cooperation of acknowledged pros, and aimed at providing useful info...

 

and unlike just about every monthly in just about every field, those two are NOT written for the advertising departments. Used to be, magazines like Digital Video and EQ also had their content written by and for working pros and dedicated to providing useful how-to info. Then the bean counters realized they'd make more money with less expense by letting manufacturers dictate the content, or by summarizing press releases, or by doing quick survey articles that were heavy with product mention to make the advertisers happy.

 

Dead giveaway: those magazines used to pay bunches of working pros to write their content. And a lot of those pros went on to write what are the standard textbooks in our industry. But because of stiffer internet competition, debt service, and other business changes, few commercial industry magazines are able to pay for content now.

 

AudioMedia might be a holdout, trying to provide useful stuff and advertisers be damned. But I'm not sure.

[Jay Rose]

Can some one give a movie with bad sound and bad mixing and a good one to compare both?

 

Virtually any porno. 

 

vs any CAS or Academy winner for sound mixing.

[PeterE]

Virtually any porno. 

 

vs any CAS or Academy winner for sound mixing.

 

Mmm I see, ok...

[PeterE]

Yes. CAS Quarterly. Like American Cinematographer, it's published by the craft society for its field. And like AC, the tech and how-to articles are full of useful info, written by or with the cooperation of acknowledged pros, and aimed at providing useful info...

 

and unlike just about every monthly in just about every field, those two are NOT written for the advertising departments. Used to be, magazines like Digital Video and EQ also had their content written by and for working pros and dedicated to providing useful how-to info. Then the bean counters realized they'd make more money with less expense by letting manufacturers dictate the content, or by summarizing press releases, or by doing quick survey articles that were heavy with product mention to make the advertisers happy.

 

Dead giveaway: those magazines used to pay bunches of working pros to write their content. And a lot of those pros went on to write what are the standard textbooks in our industry. But because of stiffer internet competition, debt service, and other business changes, few commercial industry magazines are able to pay for content now.

 

AudioMedia might be a holdout, trying to provide useful stuff and advertisers be damned. But I'm not sure.

 

 

Thanks for the CAS, looks already good to me!

 

http://cinemaaudiosociety.org

 

http://cinemaaudiosociety.org/?page_id=16

 

http://issuu.com/casociety/docs/3368_casq_winter_2013?mode=window

 

http://www.audiomedia.com/miscellaneous/0014/about-audio-media/40

 

Do they sell these magazines in shops or it goes to libraries only and online subscription ?

[David Waelder]

[Peter E]

Is there a magazine for a cinema sound people, like "American Cinematographer" where they talk about mixing and sound equipment been used on sets?

 

[Jay Rose]

Yes. CAS Quarterly. Like American Cinematographer, it's published by the craft society for its field.

 

I'd like to add a word of support for the 695 Quarterly. It's published by IATSE Local 695, the California local for production sound people, TV technicians and projectionists. It is largely supported by advertising but content is decided entirely by the member editors.

 

Recent issues have featured articles by Simon Hayes on recording Les Miserables, Jim Tannebaum on cables, wiring and equipment interconnections, Tom Brandau and David Waelder on the security of archiving data on flash media, Scott Smith on Digital Asset Management, and Steve Nelson on recording a pilot (and subsequently the series) on rivers in Puerto Rico and Hawaii.

 

There have also been some equipment tests and range tests of various antennas.

 

The most recent issue is available for download here:

http://695quarterly.com/

 

And previous issues are available here:

http://695quarterly.com/previous-issues/

 

David

[Jack Norflus]

I've heard that on 60 minutes they tend to use only lavs instead of shotguns, do they process that sound in anyway or the audience hear the raw sound?

I do a fair amount of work on 60 minutes and the choice of what microphone to use is up to the disgression of the sound person. The choice will depending on the situation. I personally use a pair of 641's a majority of the time - though there are certinally situations where I will need/have to use lavs. And there are other guys who primarily use lavs.

[PeterE]

Thanks David looks already very informative, good stuff.

[PeterE]

I do a fair amount of work on 60 minutes and the choice of what microphone to use is up to the disgression of the sound person. The choice will depending on the situation. I personally use a pair of 641's a majority of the time - though there are certinally situations where I will need/have to use lavs. And there are other guys who primarily use lavs.

 

at the end, can you tell much difference between lavs and 641's?

 

what lavs are you using?

 

and I presume that all that plugged into sound devices, right?

[Jack Norflus]

at the end, can you tell much difference between lavs and 641's?

what lavs are you using?

and I presume that all that plugged into sound devices, right?

60 min is one of the only news magazine show that most, if not all, audio goes through sweetining.

When I use lavs I will use sanken cos-11.

At home can I tell the difference audio wise? Not in most cases.

[Jack Norflus]

and I presume that all that plugged into sound devices, right?

Nope - that would be Zaxcom for me.

[studiomprd]

" Or do I miss something? "

yes, plenty!

 

" Right now it is educational and building up knowledge and confidence for future projects. "

Jay Rose's books at www.dplay.com

[Philip Perkins]

Hi--this is about the point where you need to start listening to these mics yourself.  Lots of words can be written about mics but what's actually important is how they sound in a given situation, to you, to your clients.  A store, a rental house, a studio, someone you might be able to get to know that has various mics--use these to get your ears on what the mics do.  We do this all the time--trying out new gear, deciding on its suitability for our particular uses.   The reason there are so many types and models of mics in general and in use in the business of location dialog recording is that there are many different design approaches to the problems of this kind of work, and many different opinions among professionals about what works best where.   Happy listening!

 

philp

[PeterE]

Just came across an old french film Le Professionnel (1981), sounded very natural and raw to my ears. I guess that time there were no proper sound equipment...

[PeterE]

" Or do I miss something? "

yes, plenty!

 

" Right now it is educational and building up knowledge and confidence for future projects. "

Jay Rose's books at www.dplay.com

 

Thank you, he also on his site got some great educational videos

 

http://www.dplay.com/aes/film1.html

[PeterE]

60 min is one of the only news magazine show that most, if not all, audio goes through sweetining.

When I use lavs I will use sanken cos-11.

At home can I tell the difference audio wise? Not in most cases.

So what do they use for audio sweetening?

[Jack Norflus]

So what do they use for audio sweetening?

not really sure.

[Max Futterman]

Just came across an old french film Le Professionnel (1981), sounded very natural and raw to my ears. I guess that time there were no proper sound equipment...

They probably had "proper" equipment. Technology was very different in that time. And even if it wasn't, I'd argue that the level of processing you put the sound through is an important distinction the same as the level of color correction you imply. Some directors are happy with very raw unprocessed elements.

[Marc Wielage]

I would also add to the excellent comments above that a great deal depends on 1) the acoustics of the environment in which you're recording, and 2) the placement of the specific microphone in relation to the actor(s). One or both of those factors can clobber the performance of even the best mics in the wrong hands. 

 

There is very definitely an "archer vs. the arrows" issue here: the equipment does not necessarily dictate the sound quality; the skill of the user is the biggest determining factor. One can draw parallels to cinematography: if I buy the same lenses and cameras as those used by Roger Deakins, it's not going to necessarily make my work look like Roger Deakins'. 

 

These previous discussions on sound mixing books go into a lot of the theory in great detail:

 

 

 

To me, the microphones you use are above and away more important than the recorder, sometimes even than the mixing console. But no one microphone will work well in all conditions. Often, it's combinations of microphones that save the day.

[Benjamin Gandy]

Secondly, it's a myth that many modern films mainly use ADR.

From what I've come to understand, roughly 0-10 % may be ADR, and it's mostly for scenes that had difficult location noises, stunts, or simply narrative changes.

 

Quite a few times I've said on set that this one's going to be a guide only, and they look at me with big, puzzled eyes. Of course it's scrawled in big block letters all over my report and it still finds its way into the soundtrack somehow.

 

People just don't appear to have the time or money for ADR. Then again, it seems ADR is less necessary now; equipment can pick up much better on set tracks, and big noisy sets are now big silent blue screens.

 

I never liked ADR anyway.

[PeterE]

I just realized  that the yearly films in 90s and before that sound & video would be recorded on tapes as then there were no digital recorders, right.

 

So the sound would be definitely different maybe even more natural/raw, compare to what we hear now and probably with low bit rate as well...

 

 

For example lets say Reservoir Dogs (1992) and with other lower budget movies would be a good example for comparison.

 

 

In those days, what gear did they use, the same mics with tape recorders/analogue?

 

Did they also used 5-10 mics for different purposes or was it all done with one mic/416?

 

 

--

I'm asking these questions as it is good to know the history as well

[Jeff Wexler]

Dear Peter E (again):

You really need to get a book and read up about the history of sound recording for picture. Your questions demonstrate an astonishing lack of understanding of even the most basic, fundamentals of movie sound and how it is done, today, last year, 60 years ago, etc.

 

Please, please, stop asking these questions until such time as you have at the very least a general understanding of the practices and procedures.

[PeterE]

Sorry, I'm still learning and didn't want to bother anyone with so many questions. I just wanted to have a general discussion, that's all.

 

I'll go and read books then...

[Jeff Wexler]

Feel free to continue to read the huge volume of posts here on JWSOUND (been running since 2006, 192,692 posts not counting this one) and when you're a little bit more up to speed, asking specific questions will be fine.