Experience with Schoeps MSTC 74?

[flohma]

Hello, 

 

Does anybody here have experience with the Schoeps MSTC 74 for stereo recording interiors and outside? 

 

I'm a journalist (podcast & print) but not an audio pro by any stretch. I'm experimenting with stereo techniques for ambience/reportage background recording and the possibility to create immersive audio for podcasts. I tried binaural, Double MS, MS, XY and ORTF and found ORTF the most acoustically pleasing to my ears. It's also super simple with no wide/narrow options to choose from in the mix afterwards. 

 

The MSTC seems simple and user-friendly because of its fixed angle and single cable. That's great for handling and traveling. I suppose the downside is that it's not easy to use with suspension/windshield (although Cinela have an Albert version for it). I was thinking of using it with Cinela Leos in light wind.

 

What do the pros here make of the MSTC 74? Is it too niche and specialised vs. a pair of Sennheiser MKH 8040s or Schoeps CMC 1L with MK4s? 

 

And, lastly, how do you rate the MKH 8040s vs Schoeps MK4s? 

 

Thanks! 

 

PS: This New York Times article got me onto ORTF as a tool in news reporting: https://rd.nytimes.com/projects/tips-for-capturing-and-recording-spatial-audio/ I already saw myself hand holding the MSTC 74 during demonstrations or embedded in a tank, but I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself... 

[grawk]

many lifetimes ago I had an mstc44.  It was stereo in easy mode, the recordings always came out well.  It's not flexible, and doesn't respond as well to stereo manipulation via software, so it's a "you get what you get", but it definitely sounds better out of the mic than any other stereo mic I've used.

[Sebi]

I can't tell from your post if you already own the MSTC 74 (since you posted the picture) or intend to buy one.

If you don't already own it then I would rather go for the CMC1 + MK4 setup. Putting this pair in the Cinela Albert you can basically use it for ambiences everywhere. Even without the fur these blimps are protecting the mics from light winds and sound quite transparent so no changing of your mic setup from int to ext.

The main benefit I see from going CMC1 instead of MSTC is the flexibility. So you could also use them seperately for podcast interviews or whatever situation where you might need one or two cardiod mics.

 

If you already have the MSTC and intend to use it exclusively for ambiences then I would probably stick to it. The Cinela Albert would be a nice addition but sure, two Leos, Bubblebee Windkillers or similar will handle most wind situations. For stronger winds you might need a blimp though...

[flohma]

20 hours ago, grawk said:

It's not flexible, and doesn't respond as well to stereo manipulation via software

Interesting, how would the MSTC 74 respond differently to stereo manipulation via software than the same two MK4 capsules on CMC amps? because of the 5 pin cable?? 

18 hours ago, Sebi said:

I can't tell from your post if you already own the MSTC 74 (since you posted the picture) or intend to buy one.

If you don't already own it then I would rather go for the CMC1 + MK4 setup. Putting this pair in the Cinela Albert you can basically use it for ambiences everywhere. Even without the fur these blimps are protecting the mics from light winds and sound quite transparent so no changing of your mic setup from int to ext.

The main benefit I see from going CMC1 instead of MSTC is the flexibility. So you could also use them seperately for podcast interviews or whatever situation where you might need one or two cardiod mics.

 

If you already have the MSTC and intend to use it exclusively for ambiences then I would probably stick to it. The Cinela Albert would be a nice addition but sure, two Leos, Bubblebee Windkillers or similar will handle most wind situations. For stronger winds you might need a blimp though...

I‘ve been lucky enough to be loaned a number of different stereo setups to test drive them, the MSTC 74 on the photos is one of them, I‘m also testing an Albert with two 8040s, an Albert with two CMC1L MK4s and a Pianissimo with the 8040s and MKH 30. 

 

My question was mainly about practical experience in the long run, since that‘s when the rubber hits the road. For instance, I found that Double MS would be complete overkill for my purposes and too much of a hassle, starting with the thick 10pin cable and ending with complicated choices editing in post (at least for a sound amateur like me). 

 

Thanks for your feedback y‘all!  

 

[grawk]

2 hours ago, flohma said:

Interesting, how would the MSTC 74 respond differently to stereo manipulation via software than the same two MK4 capsules on CMC amps? because of the 5 pin cable?? 

 

 

No just the ortf placement hasn’t responded to width manipulation in my (somewhat limited) experience. Mid-side or XY would be my choice for a permanent stereo pair because it’s easier to manipulate. 

 

That said, nothing would stop you from getting active cables or additional bodies to enable using the capsules in other ways, so it’s not the worst option, and ortf does often sound very good. 

[Sebi]

3 hours ago, grawk said:

No just the ortf placement hasn’t responded to width manipulation in my (somewhat limited) experience. Mid-side or XY would be my choice for a permanent stereo pair because it’s easier to manipulate.

Yes, that's basically true for all the stereo setups that involve spaced mics. If the two mics aren't panned hard L/R and the signals correlate then there can be unwanted phasing going on created by the time difference between the two mics. That's why XY and MS are a safe option if you want to stay mono-compatible but also less interesting in stereo compared to spaced pairs. To many ears at least... since ORTF mimics the way we are hearing stereophonic by combining time difference and intensity of the incoming signals.

 

6 hours ago, flohma said:

My question was mainly about practical experience in the long run, since that‘s when the rubber hits the road. For instance, I found that Double MS would be complete overkill for my purposes and too much of a hassle, starting with the thick 10pin cable and ending with complicated choices editing in post (at least for a sound amateur like me).

If you're recording sounds for your podcast then DMS is probably overkill, yes. But practically I really like MS and I think it's also worth considering. I like the idea of having a "center" mic especially when being on a tour recording ambiences but also maybe sfx stuff or whatever sounds that might be used in mono. So you just point at it and record on-axis. Of course you could also just use your ORTF and point one side to the sound source and record the same thing. Maybe it's just a matter of taste. Since I'm doing mostly dialogue work it's just way more practical to add a MK8 to the boom mic and go stereo.

It all depends on what you're planning to do. Just wanted to add this in case it's relevant for you.

[flohma]

21 hours ago, Sebi said:

Yes, that's basically true for all the stereo setups that involve spaced mics. If the two mics aren't panned hard L/R and the signals correlate then there can be unwanted phasing going on created by the time difference between the two mics. That's why XY and MS are a safe option if you want to stay mono-compatible but also less interesting in stereo compared to spaced pairs. To many ears at least... since ORTF mimics the way we are hearing stereophonic by combining time difference and intensity of the incoming signals.

 

If you're recording sounds for your podcast then DMS is probably overkill, yes. But practically I really like MS and I think it's also worth considering. I like the idea of having a "center" mic especially when being on a tour recording ambiences but also maybe sfx stuff or whatever sounds that might be used in mono. So you just point at it and record on-axis. Of course you could also just use your ORTF and point one side to the sound source and record the same thing. Maybe it's just a matter of taste. Since I'm doing mostly dialogue work it's just way more practical to add a MK8 to the boom mic and go stereo.

It all depends on what you're planning to do. Just wanted to add this in case it's relevant for you.

 

Good point! I‘m eagerly expecting the release of the Cinela MS Cosi whenever it comes out. 

[JesseF]

I think it's a beautiful set up, but my personal preference is flexibility.  I'd prefer two CMC1 pres with MK41 capsules to a fixed ORTF rig. 

[flohma]

2 hours ago, Jesse Flaitz said:

I think it's a beautiful set up, but my personal preference is flexibility.  I'd prefer two CMC1 pres with MK41 capsules to a fixed ORTF rig. 

CMC1 L or U? 

[inspire]

Hello!
I have it, and its greatest convenience is the speed of setup, decent quality, and everything usually turns out quite well!
You just need to make sure the levels are set right. You won't achieve this compactness with two separate microphones.
Of course, windshields are mandatory outdoors.
Good luck with your decision, but I think it's one of the best choices if you want ORTF!

[flohma]

8 hours ago, inspire said:

Hello!
I have it, and its greatest convenience is the speed of setup, decent quality, and everything usually turns out quite well!
You just need to make sure the levels are set right. You won't achieve this compactness with two separate microphones.
Of course, windshields are mandatory outdoors.
Good luck with your decision, but I think it's one of the best choices if you want ORTF!

Fast setup sounds like a good journalistic use case. But what do you mean by "decent quality"? Shouldn't it be top notch at this price point?!

8 hours ago, inspire said:

Hello!
I have it, and its greatest convenience is the speed of setup, decent quality, and everything usually turns out quite well!
You just need to make sure the levels are set right. You won't achieve this compactness with two separate microphones.
Of course, windshields are mandatory outdoors.
Good luck with your decision, but I think it's one of the best choices if you want ORTF!

How do you find the W5D windshields to work outside? I live in Hamburg, so wind is always around the corner...

And what is that microphone on the left? 

[flohma]

8 hours ago, inspire said:

Hello!
I have it, and its greatest convenience is the speed of setup, decent quality, and everything usually turns out quite well!
You just need to make sure the levels are set right. You won't achieve this compactness with two separate microphones.
Of course, windshields are mandatory outdoors.
Good luck with your decision, but I think it's one of the best choices if you want ORTF!

And, finally: Which exact tripod model is that? I feel the Nano tripods I've tried with the MSTC are probably too low to record ORTF properly, right? 

[inspire]

Hi!

I believe most tripods are suitable for this microphone because it is lightweight and doesn't require a lot of strength! I included a picture to show that I wanted to place it above the choir conductor, so a tall tripod is needed. However, for nature walks, a smaller and lighter one is much more convenient.

Attached to the back tripod, I have a recorder, and for that, I use the Manfrotto MS0490C Carbon Nanopole Stand. The first K&M tripod is quite thick and would need a special attachment.

Generally, I use the smaller tripod; I later bought the larger one for recording the choir. The Schoeps W5D Windshield is sufficient for me. I usually don't record in very strong winds.

But what do you mean by "decent quality"? 😁 I meant that even those who are picky will probably be satisfied - polite and neat.

 

[petersont]

Staying with Schoeps ( there ARE other excellent miniature cardioid options, some costing far less $...) this offers identical sound with the flexibility to use your investment in many other ways...  with zero loss of acoustic quality, choose the CMC 1L amp + MK4 capsule  vs the CCM4 one piece. 

 

[inspire]

BTW, you need then Matched Pair Microphones and I hope you know, what I mean.

[Sebi]

4 hours ago, inspire said:

BTW, you need then Matched Pair Microphones and I hope you know, what I mean.

I don't intend to correct you there because you're basically right. But I just wanted to add that in my experience mics from high-class manufacturers like Schoeps usually don't have a lot of tolerance in their quality checks. Of course the stereo-sets they sell have paired capsules and the matching is then probably as good as it gets. But in my experience with Schoeps you actually pick any two MK4's for example and they will match just fine. German broadcast engineers for classical music have min. 20-30 Schoeps or Neumanns in their cases and you can probably pick any combination of mics for a main mic pair. I'm not exactly sure about capsules from different generations of production.

That being said, if you're about to buy a new pair then there's no reason not to buy a matched pair. But I personally wouldn't bother about the matching if I bought several mics independently or used. Maybe others disagree or made different experiences.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

If I'm not mistaken Schoeps (or was it Neumann?) refused to sell matched pairs for some decades before finally bowing to market demand because they claimed their quality control made it unnecessary.

If you need to be 100% certain your stereo image is as "accurate" as possible, by all means, buy matched mics so you have that certainty.  But you can get very excellent stereo recordings without "matched" microphones because most reputable microphones are close enough in their manufacturing tolerances that the certainty is unnecessary.  If you hear a problem, then by all means, test your mics and see if they are different.  Or buy a matched pair for the certainty that it provides.  But the "need" to always use a matched pair is mostly marketing fluff in my opinion.  It solves a non-problem.  Trust your ears first.

[inspire]

I will add my Certificate of Matching - numbers are distantly afar!

[Vincent R.]

21 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

Trust your ears first

(Your) ears are definitely not matched ;). 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

2 hours ago, Vincent R. said:

(Your) ears are definitely not matched ;). 

True story!

[flohma]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:08 PM, petersont said:

Staying with Schoeps ( there ARE other excellent miniature cardioid options, some costing far less $...) this offers identical sound with the flexibility to use your investment in many other ways...  with zero loss of acoustic quality, choose the CMC 1L amp + MK4 capsule  vs the CCM4 one piece. 

 

That's an interesting solution, petersont. Have you tried it yourself? How secure is the fit of the microphones on their tiny lemo adapters in the STC 4? 

[OB1]

I have a lot of experience with this stereo bar. They are very secure and cannot be knocked out unless you are forcefully trying to (dropping, etc.).

There are also variations of stereo bars that can be purchased (in the USA) that offer other stereo solutions like DIN, NOS, and a variation of DIN but at 17cm instead of the 20cm. So with that you can prepare for multiple scenarions (wider stereo separation, small or big rooms, etc.).

 

If you need further info on the alternate stereo bars, reach out DM, I know some of the manufacturers personally.

[petersont]

+1 - I've owned and used this exact setup: STSC-4 with a pair of ccm4s, and as OB1 says its very secure... and no reason to think the newest mini lemo amp CMC 1L  paired with an MK 4 would be any different. Schoeps promotes it as much, here: https://schoeps.de/en/products/accessories/stereo-accessories/bars-and-clamps/stc.html

ORTF as you no doubt know was originally conceived for French Radio to be a very natural sounding and quick / reliable stereo solution with "decent" mono compatibility. But for those times when you have more time & the curiosity to experiment - and since you seem to be starting your Schoeps collection from scratch -  you might also consider the MK5 capsule which can be both an omni and cardioid... and voilá you also own a pristine spaced omni pair for about $300 per capsule more vs the MK4. And if you haven't already, check out Gearspace.com  Remote Possibilities in Recording & Production  for a lot of helpful info on all things classical & acoustic recording, ORTF and AB stereo and recommendations on the MK5 capsule in particular.

Have fun -

[flohma]

Thanks, OB1 and Petersont. I had read about the MK5 capsules and some people said the original capsules (MK4 and MK2) were superior to the MK5 in respective modes. But that's probably an academic difference, or what's your practical experience? Any downside to MK5 vs the other two? 

Regarding MSTC 74 vs. STC 4, I suppose one slight disadvantage of the latter is that you have two (lemo) cables dangling down rather than just one 5-Pin XLR cable. 

[inspire]

By the way, these cables can be conveniently extended if you have multiple pieces! For example, I have 2x 5m Y-cables, which I can combine to create a 10 m Y-stereo cable. 
On the other hand, in some cases, I can also use two separate stereo microphones then because I have another stereo microphone with the same Y-cable. 
As seen in your first photo, you can achieve the result with the original cable if a short cable is sufficient for you. However, sometimes flexibility is necessary! If you have a portable recorder that can be placed close to the microphone, then an additional cable is not necessary for that. 
However, if you plan to use the microphone on a Microphone Boom-Pole, then I believe an extension cable would be a good choice.