bcopenhagen Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 How does everyone handle signal flow to their backup system? Most of us who have mixers at the front end, with direct outs, send the ISOs to your [insert your main recorder here], but does anyone do a FULL backup to a second device (ie, including mix + ISOs)? If so, how do you split the directs? If not, do you just send the mix track to the backup device? It wasn't previously an issue for me with Boom Recorder and a PD-4, as the DAT just got the mix track, or occasionally, split tracks off the 2nd main mix out from my Sonosax. Now, having dropped a 744T in the place of the DAT, I'm pondering what I should send to the 744T. Just sending the mix track sorta defeats having 4 tracks available, but I don't really like the idea of adding a splitter to provide the directs to both devices... There are several possibilities if I consider AES and SPDIF communication between the devices, but putting them in series (one device feeding off the other) defeats the insurance of a backup machine running concurrently. Ideas? Previously discussed? Many thanks. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 How does everyone handle signal flow to their backup system? Most of us who have mixers at the front end, with direct outs, send the ISOs to your [insert your main recorder here], but does anyone do a FULL backup to a second device (ie, including mix + ISOs)? If so, how do you split the directs? If not, do you just send the mix track to the backup device? I have been running a 744T in parallel with my Deva so it does serve as a backup machine (although I have never had to use any of the tracks on the 744T --- I sometimes wonder why I even run it). I send only my Track 1 (from the main output bus of my Cooper 208) which is essentially the so-called "mix" track. None of the iso tracks that go direct out, pre-fader to the Deva are recored by the 744T. This suits the way we work, for the most part, since my track 1 is really the best track on most of the movies we do and the iso tracks are really just extras or alternates, usually not even needed. You have to remember that often my mix track is not really a mix of anything --- it is just the Schoeps microphone on Don's fishpole. I am not doing TV shows with 6 wireless mixed to one track (producing what is often less than a perfect mix) and the iso tracks would be all important. So, if you really feel the need to record some of your iso tracks to the 744T backup, I would consider simple Y-cable split (analog) of whatever Direct Outs you need to backup. - Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Sorensen Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Hey Jeff , can I ask you a question that has had me perplexed for some time and it is still related to the topic? When you say that you send only 1 track( to the Deva), is it a left & right track ? , there by making it actually 2 tracks ? If I send only one track to my Fostex PD606 it would be on the left side ( head phone , speaker only) called track one and nothing on the right side , which is called track two. All other tracks are odd number on left and even number on right of the stereo bus , I think . I don't know if a Deva works differently , or a Cantar for that matter. Kevin Sorensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Graff Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Thanks for starting this thread, Brian, as this question has been on my mind as well. I would like to know not only what folks use as a backup but also what is expected of them by their producers. Are you rolling a backup only for your peace of mind or are you required to roll one, and if so, do you turn it in each day? My experience has been that feature mixers do not turn in a backup, if they roll one at all, while television mixers usually do. Most backup only the mix track, but some backup the isos as well. I agree that running the digital outs of the Deva to boom recorder or metacorder seems silly. A backup is only a backup if it works should the recorder fail somehow. I am leaning toward a 702t as a backup to Deva. I have an analog mixer, so a full backup would entail splitting all the direct outs as Jeff mentioned, which is unappealing to me. If I was a 01V user, a full backup of all tracks would make more sense. My mixer does have four bus outs, so I could judiciously choose which tracks to back up, but that seems unnecessarily complex. A backup should be simple and consistent, I would think, and not detract time and attention for something unlikely to be used. PG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Palmer Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 I agree that the recording machines we now use have more than proven their ability to record dependably. And the need for a back-up machine for their support has all but gone away with the DAT recorder. However, the dependability of the DVD-RAM and whether Telecine can mount the DVD in the middle of the night, with an expensive session booked...that's a different story. And for me, the back up device is for that purpose only. That's why I only run the mix track to my 702T, which gives a Telecine back up. If the DV-40 pukes out the DVD-RAM from my DEVA, they load the DVD-RAM from my 702T and no one ever knows the difference. It has happened more than once, for a couple of different reasons, a bad DVD-RAM, and overlapping code due to pre-roll..a problem which has since been corrected. No calls in the middle of the night, and everyone is happy. Semi-cheap insurance. ~pwp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSBELLA Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 hey guys, Another reason to have back ups (it seeems 744t's lately) is for the "driving shot" or the quick line in the actors dressing room, basically so you don't have to rip apart your main setup. as you guys have stated, there are no more pcm errors (well maybe for a handfull) so really no need for a true backup rec. anymore. you always have your data on the hard drive. you could always burn or mirror a new dvd. one thing, you might want to have is a "backup" hard drive on your cart or stuffed in a nearby drawer. if that hd fails, you are not recording. when I rent out a deva for instance, and the client is shooting out of town/ state and especially the country, I will send a backup 100g hd. later, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Hey Jeff , can I ask you a question that has had me perplexed for some time and it is still related to the topic? When you say that you send only 1 track( to the Deva), is it a left & right track ? , there by making it actually 2 tracks ? Kevin Sorensen The Deva does not work this way (I don't know how the Cantar handles this). Fostex seems always to have referred to their machines as things like "6+2" and so forth, the Cantar originally, I believe, required that use tracks 7 and 8 as "mix" tracks and so forth. With the Deva, track 1 is track 1 and that's it. Over 90% of the recordings I make are track 1 only and there is no phantom track 2, or a "right track" or anything like that. Some of the playback machines do at times misinterpret this and display that there are 2 tracks, or if I have recorded 2 tracks, let's say track 1 and track 3, the other machine may call this "track 1 and track 2" or "left track" and "right track" but this has not caused any difficulty. - Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 My very old Cooper 106+1 can route sound from multiple outs to additional recorders if need be. Until last year I never felt the need to do so as a matter of course. I bought a 744t at the end of 06 for a back up in case of catastrophic failure of the Deva 4 I roll. I started rolling it as a 2nd recorder to get familiar with it so if the time came I would be ready to go. The 744t is a well built, solid recorder IMO, and as Mr FSBella said, good for times when you don't want to tear the main cart apart. I rolled it as a "back up" for a year cause the little recorder is built like a rock and I will never wear it out before it becomes obsolete. I have since bought the Sound Devices 4 channel mixer to go with it. I use that rig w a dvd burner as a insert car rig, or a second system when called for. I have never been asked by a producer to roll a back up. This year I have been rolling BoomRecorder as a back up and I love that software. I can surf n ichat while I record with it. Last Sunday I tracked a 8 piece Dixieland jazz band, using my Onyx Mackie w firewire card to my G 4 PowerBook 1.67. I rolled 15 tracks and all went well. I imported it all into Pro Tools to mix. Great software. ( B R n P T). As for sending telecine 1 or 2 tracks, when I got my Deva, I started off sending in 1 track recordings. I soon got calls from Rush's n Co 3, the main telecine houses in L A for commercials, asking for two tracks. It has been a while, but I remember the reason stated was that that was the way they were wired and that is how they deliver the tapes and DVD's. So 2 tracks it is unless it one of the 5 or 6 jobs I do a year that are multi track. Then I track my ISO's to the Deva, and the mix to my SD for telecine. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcopenhagen Posted February 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 That's why I only run the mix track to my 702T, which gives a Telecine back up. And that mix track is sent from an additional main out from your mixer? My very old Cooper 106+1 can route sound from multiple outs to additional recorders if need be. Multiple main outs for the mix track, I presume? Not directs... So, consensus so far is: 1) no backup rolling or 2) backing up only the mix track(s) Still want to know if anyone splits directs for a full multitrack backup... -Brian (Perhaps I am slightly more cautious about running a backup, since I use Boom Recorder as my primary system. It's solid as heck... it's the computer, external FW hard drive, DVD-RAM, etc. that I worry will decide to give up the ghost.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afewmoreyears Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 First, This conversation really depends on the show.... As always, that will dictate how you configure, and why.... Second, I do NOT record to a "back-up" Why..... The stuff works..... I deliver 2 tracks unless like Crew says, you have to send ISO tracks a few times a year..... My recordings are backed up while recording in Mirror mode.... In a melt-down situation, I could FTP the files needed..... Has not ever happened to me.... yet.... Once the editor wanted tracks that were not transfered.... So I sent them via the web..... No problem.... If a new disc needs to be burned, I'll do it.... I do keep a file based Deck ready to go, on my cart, for quick run and gun, or to use as a backup IF NEEDED>>>>> If I sense a problem, in a moment I can be up and running without much of a delay at all..... Other than that, I trust the gear to do it's job..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Maybe this is all just my naivete, but... Is there really a discernible difference (signal loss) between an un-split short cable and a split "Y" cable when the cable runs are so short (usually under 2 feet when between various components on the same cart)? Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 On our endlessly variant oddball jobs (almost all video), we send our 2-mix (usually split boom/lav mix) to the cameras, per instructions (threats more like) from the producers and post. We also record prefade iso and a copy of the 2-mix to Metacorder. For awhile I was also rolling a 702T, but that mostly doesn't get rolled anymore (but does serve as a TC>clock generator and TC reader for the Traveler), unless the computer horks (usually operator error), or we are recording a concert that is a one time deal. We have bag rigs for cars and one man band jobs, usually recording to the Tascam P2 w/ a wireless TC feed from video. Spare ext drives are a good idea (for the computer). On film jobs so far we DO roll the 702T (2-mix) and that DVDRAM (from the SD DVDRAM) goes to telecine, the prefade isos get burned and sent later. Metacorder can to a "split-poly" type recording, where you can have separate polys for the 2-mix and the isos, and we could roll that way mirroring to a DVDRAM w/ the 2-mix for telecine, but the situation comes up so seldom that we haven't gotten around to this yet. I know that there ARE folks who are running both Deva-type recorders AND Boom Rec. systems at the same time--they usually seem to be driving 01v96 mixers (to get all those outputs). Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Hey AFMY, I forget, do you roll the Deva? For the first 3 or so years, I never backed up cause as you say the mirror dvd ram is the copy of your back up on the int drive. Zero failure so far. The reason I use BoomRecorder these days is two fold. 1) the Spectrum Analyzer look cool n is good eye wash for the masses. 2) When the call comes from the editor or some minion wondering where the wild track is,(not transfered by telecine), it is easy to pull my drive and send the files to a ftp or email account. Also a cool trick is using ichat to send wav files. No limit on those file sizes. When did we become responsible for files not transfered BTW? Any way I've been rollin BR as I type n post n surf today at work. Brian, I for one, would feel much safer using a dedicated recorder and BR as a sweet back up. I think a mixer needs two recorders minimum. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 I run one master output channel to my 744T burning a DVD-RAM as my master and for dailies. As many folks here have said, and I agree, we are paid for our mix so that's all I give them. I have yet to get "the phone call" regarding a bad piece of media, but I'm sure it'll come some day. The 744T/DVD-RAM is Velcroed all together, so I can pull it off for my car/table-top rig. I have all the cables in both places, so I don't re-patch anything. I run SPDIF out of the 744T to my FF800 and Boom Recorder for the channel one master mix, and all my direct outs go to the other inputs. I used to send the other master output from the board to channel one, but I like the idea of monitoring the 744T and sending the digital out as the master to Boom Recorder channel one. I no longer turn in this back-up daily on a longer job (hate waiting while burning a DVD). I give them a HD at the end. No complaints so far. During production, I did have one editor ask if I had an ISO for one off screen line so he could play with it for the temp, so I emailed the file. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.elder Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 I know a few sound mixers who backup their ISO's as well as their mix; they send analog signal to one of the multi-track machines and digital signal to the other. I use the 744T as a telecine / dailies machine and for a quick bag system as well. I find it's a good idea to run a 744T for telecine in New York, as dailies are often done in town but editorial is usually in California. Editorial will get the ISO's as well as a mono mix track on a separate disc. Producers (really production managers) often like two machines (and two discs at the end of the day) when I'm somewhere fairly remote that calls for a film runner, or when they are shipping film and sound rolls to Fotokem in LA. I personally wouldn't sweat running ISO's to the 744T as well as the mix, as when I find that I need ISO's, I usually need more than 3. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I know a few sound mixers who backup their ISO's as well as their mix; they send analog signal to one of the multi-track machines and digital signal to the other. I use the 744T as a telecine / dailies machine and for a quick bag system as well. I find it's a good idea to run a 744T for telecine in New York, as dailies are often done in town but editorial is usually in California. Editorial will get the ISO's as well as a mono mix track on a separate disc. Producers (really production managers) often like two machines (and two discs at the end of the day) when I'm somewhere fairly remote that calls for a film runner, or when they are shipping film and sound rolls to Fotokem in LA. I personally wouldn't sweat running ISO's to the 744T as well as the mix, as when I find that I need ISO's, I usually need more than 3. Tim Yes. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 However, the dependability of the DVD-RAM and whether Telecine can mount the DVD in the middle of the night, with an expensive session booked...that's a different story. And for me, the back up device is for that purpose only. No calls in the middle of the night, and everyone is happy. Semi-cheap insurance. ~pwp In the early days of file based recording when only a few of us were doing it and very few facilities had demonstrated that they really knew what they were doing, I always did backups and in a form that I knew they could deal with. I never wanted to be blamed for the dailies not getting out on time. Now, since the majority of productions are using file based recording and the majority of the facilities are up to steam, I do not feel the need to cover their act anymore. What I am saying really only applies to long form projects where I have given them a test disk, possibly even tested the whole workflow involving the facility, the picture editorial department and in some cases sound editorial. Once a facility has made the deal with the production company, and these are really big lucrative deals for the facilities, they need to perform. If there is any "calls in the middle of the night" they should not be to me. If someone at the facility has a meltdown and can't get the dailies out on time, the call should be to the facility manager who must then call the production company and explain the problem. Since we all seem to agree now that we can rely on our equipment, we are using media (DVD-RAM for example) which is very reliable and fault tolerant, I see no reason to run a backup machine with a different format, possibly even less reliable (DAT, DVD-R, etc.) to try and protect a facility screw up. - Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but Brian asked in the initial post about splitting a feed from his ISO's to 2 different machines. Does anyone have a position on that? I'm certainly curious... Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Hey Joshua, the way I read these posts is that you may split off signal in many ways if the job calls for it or if you think it is the best solution for a shoot, but the ball is in the mixers court. I see a simple work flow as desirable when possible. There are many formats we work within sound recording that share the same technology to do the job. Long form movies n TV, and commercials, doc's, reality, industrial share more aspects than not. To me problem solving is the link that ties all formats of sound recording together, not technology. All in service to the story telling... My position is "whatever works is the best". CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Hey Crew, I certainly agree in all aspects that whatever works - works (Hey, isn't that the job?). My question - or what piqued my interest in this thread - was when wiring up "your" cart, does it make a difference to split the cables out on a short run to 2 different machines. There are certainly many theories on what constitutes a "back-up" (be it, a machine that records a mirrored copy or two machines so that when the two act independent of each other in case of failure). But that all really seems to be a comfort and personal experience kind of thing. I guess I'm thinking about the nuts and bolts level as aside to the theoretical. Maybe, I don't know... Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Hey Joshua, all mixers have the crossovers n cables to do almost anything. As for carts, wiring is re-wiring all the time. I would advise you not to lock anything in concrete. Be flexible. Stuff changes, gear moves around the old sound cart. I bet JW couldn't count all the times he has wired components and re built all his stuff. Nethier could I. Basically you need to do it once to do it again, and like sex, you will do it again. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 A Ha! I guess I missed it. Jeff covered the "Y" cable scenerio in Post #2 and I overlooked it. I guess I was expecting some sort of heady discussion on the merits of splitting a signal or not - a ha, newbie strikes again. That was my main interest. I think the choice of how you "back up" really has to do with your comfort level. On one extreme you can have a boom operator holding two mics, with two separate lines to two different mixers - feeding two different recorders. And after that it's a degree of your comfort and experiences with being burned by the machines we trust. Josh Sex and sound, Crew, A lovely but nerdy combination if I've ever heard one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 We've had discussions ad nauseum about the merits or redundancy of backup machines and while there have been some interesting opinions I've come to the conclusion that those of us that have had the rare and unexpected failure of a primary machine will always have a simultaneous and completely independent system running. It only needs to happen once and you'll never be the same again. Cheers Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.elder Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 This thread seems to have runs its course, but as an idea as to how to wire the cart for multiple backups of ISO's, why not use a split ground-lifting box, like the kind that are used in live music multi-track recording? Many production sound mixers use the small ones that provide one additional split, but Whirlwind makes several larger models. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSBELLA Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 hey guys, Aphex has a great 1x4 DA perfect for time code to camera, feed to video village and split iso's to "backup unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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