shug Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hi all, I've being watching the film Control ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421082/ ). It's a biopic film about the band Joy Division and from what I understand the actors (playing the band) played much of the gig scenes live themselves. It's a really great sounding movie and has me thinking about music recorded onset. I was wondering if people wouldn't mind sharing their experiences of recording live music for feature films. Thanks in advance, Hugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 The best way to make it look live is to playback the music and have them sing to the song live. If you want to do it all live,you have to do it all in one take and use multiple cameras covering everything. You also can shoot it all live and then play back the "master" take and have them pantomine to that. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shug Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hey J.D., Thanks for the reply, Are you saying have playback with no vocals and record the sound of their vocals live or have full playback which includes vocals and have them sing but don't record them (so it looks like they are singing live?). Both seem like good ideas depending on how competent the actors are . I had been reading about recording a few takes live and then using the best take as the Master for playback which would then be used to mime too. With those fully live recordings would the actors be getting a click track or some kind of IEM? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I do it the same way as I would if I were recording for a live show dvd. You need lots of I/O and lots of tracks. I believe all of the Spinal Tap concerts in the movie were recorded live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 You playback the music and record that on one[or two]tracks and record the vocals live on other track [or tracks].believe me,this is the way to do it.I believe this is how Bob Eber did it on Spinal Tap.That's how we did it on "Doctor Detroit" with James Brown. KEEP IT SIMPLE------- J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I've done this work a whole lotta ways depending on various factors. The question really is down to whether the performers can really "bring it" live, in a situation that could be strange for them (lighting, cameras, multiple takes, waiting for the crew to be ready) and if the production wants to pay for this (and risk the performer having a bad night). Some performers can do this and make really memorable music that way, others burn out right away or get pissed off or distracted. The classic music video style playback technique was arrived at pretty much for economic reasons, and a desire to use multiple locations and non-musical performance action in the videos. There have been many great concert films done live on one or multiple nights because the artists had the juice to work that way ("Stop Making Sense", some of the Elvis specials, Tom Waits "Big Time"), and I've done this with many lesser known artists as well. Hybrid, "live first, playback later" styles can be a halfway method capturing that space and that performer at that time and then keeping the timing straight for the cut. My least favorite method is straight playback--to the point that I avoid playback-only jobs anymore. Deadly, unless the director makes something really interesting visually out of it (NOT including the band standing there looking kind of embarrassed with unplugged guitars and no mics). It is SO much easier and cheaper to shoot a real show with multiple cameras and portable multitrack recording gear than it used to be that I sort of think that if what is wanted is a video that looks like a PERFORMANCE then it should really BE a live performance. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Lots of ways to approach live music on set, everything from full on multi-track recording, playback of backing tracks with live vocals, and everything in between. Varies widely based on budget, whims (and patience) of the director, acoustics, not to mention the ability of the performers to do a convincing performance to playback. Usually involves a fair amount of work, but when done right, can make for a much more engaging performance. Was fun to do back in the day, but now I call in the pros if it involves more than about ten mikes or so. --Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 It is SO much easier and cheaper to shoot a real show with multiple cameras and portable multitrack recording gear than it used to be that I sort of think that if what is wanted is a video that looks like a PERFORMANCE then it should really BE a live performance. philp I agree with almost everything Philip says but need to comment on the last statement above --- in a dramatic feature movie if you want a performance that looks like a performance, often it cannot be done live because the "performers" (actors with varying musical talents or NO musical talent) could never pull it off. We did a whole lot of concert scenes in "Almost Famous" and I think they are some of the best most real looking and sounding concert scenes I have ever done when using pre-recorded playback tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engaudio Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hi all, I've being watching the film Control ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421082/ ). It's a biopic film about the band Joy Division and from what I understand the actors (playing the band) played much of the gig scenes live themselves. It's a really great sounding movie and has me thinking about music recorded onset. I was wondering if people wouldn't mind sharing their experiences of recording live music for feature films. Thanks in advance, Hugh. Being an old JD fan I have that movie, it's quiet in the sense that there's not a lot going on audio wise. Check it out if you want to see & hear a film with a different take on a mix, I like it a lot. ( BTW: it's Anton Corbijns' first feature film, get the directors suite version with all the extras) It's been a while since I watched it but I'm sure in the extras they mention that all the "gigs" were recorded live. Grant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I tried the one mic method on a Georgian folk band for a wedding scene. I placed the mic and the musicians in a way which I thought sounded great, but the guy playing an instrument like an oboe, who I placed furthest away, could help but slide his chair up to the mic EVERY time. I tried and tried, using translators, but he just couldn't help himself. No time for plan 'B' and I was quite certain it'd be replaced anyway, but it was such a cool performance. Not all musicians get the concept :-) And since I can't ever get enough of this video, you can hear the band I was trying to record in the BG of this video, af a demonstration we were given by The Georgian National Ballet in their rehearsal space. We used dancers and the rehearsal band in the scene. What was truly amazing about the space was the floor. Not just the smoothness of the very rugged planks, but the vibrations as the dancers hit the ground on their knees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Thanks Robert for posting this again... I never get tired of watching it, truly amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 There is another thread discussing live music on the movie Les Mis, which notes some of the many issues that can be involved. Filming musical numbers to playback has been around for a long long time (since the '30's) and there are lots of good reasons it is still a darn good way to work. As movie making is largely problem solving, and thus movie sound is also largely problem solving, there are a lot of options that can be workable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callou Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Don't know if someone working on "Treme" is spending some times around here, but i really like to hear how they deal with the hudge amont of musical sequences in very various location in this show.. From what i see the multi camera solution is used , but i like to know more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Whitlock Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 Occasionally the director or AD isn't familar with the nuts and bolts of the playback process. It's important to walk them through the details and options -- suspending our wonky audio lingo -- before they build a callsheet for the shoot. Playback scenes get more complex when dialogue is happening over background playback. This becomes a more complicated setup with in-ear monitors. At some level of complexity, a dedicated playback engineer is required. They're worth their weight in gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I've done it a few ways. I did a film that was about a singer/songwriter on the road. When we shot scenes of him playing, they blocked enough time for us to do takes of him playing live and ones where we did playback and he played along. It was significantly easier being just one guitar and vocals, and me having a multi-track recorder. I only saw a rough version of the film, so I don't know what was used in the end. EDIT: In this case the actor was also a musician. The recordings that were played back were of him performing. Not to most common instance, but applies to OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 I agree with almost everything Philip says but need to comment on the last statement above --- in a dramatic feature movie if you want a performance that looks like a performance, often it cannot be done live because the "performers" (actors with varying musical talents or NO musical talent) could never pull it off. We did a whole lot of concert scenes in "Almost Famous" and I think they are some of the best most real looking and sounding concert scenes I have ever done when using pre-recorded playback tracks. If the actors can "act" musical and that's what is wanted then fine, but I maintain that it still does not have the frisson of a real live musical performance, something is lost when people mime to playback. I understand the exigencies of Hollywood re non-musician actors playing musicians, but there are also notable exceptions to this, and the new "Les Mis" is a case in point. I mean, it's why we're all so excited about it! philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted October 22, 2012 Report Share Posted October 22, 2012 " something is lost when people mime to playback. " of course it is different... I personally tend to prefer "recorded live" albums most especially the ones by performers who are really great when live, but there have been, and are, considerations especially when making a movie, that have mostly dictated the various forms of "playback" we have been traditionally using. Any and all playback situations require careful pre-planning;to make the new Les Miz this way requires a lot of planning, purpose, dedication, technology, cooperation, commitment, time, and money. BTW: on Ed Sullivan, acts like the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and even Broadway shows performed live, fully and really live.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Hugh, I'm not working on a feature film but I deal with a good deal of playback and live singing on the TV show I work on: Smash. Every episode has some sort of lip synch to playback, live singing to playback, live singing to live music or some combination of the three. I try to approach all of these scenarios with two points of interest: 1) how are we going to record it (which includes keeping some activities or music quiet and the dialogue and/or singing clean)? 2) how is it going to be cut or used? Sometimes the inherent problem is that if we're micing the singers, more cameras make it harder to mic, but possibly easier to cut. A possibly shameless plug: Daron at Sound and Picture magazine interviewed me and wrote up an article. It has some info on how we handle music and playback on our show: http://www.soundandpictureonline.com/wp-content/issues/Sound_Picture/2012/snp2012v1.pdf Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungo Posted October 23, 2012 Report Share Posted October 23, 2012 Classical music: Perhaps there's an audio van around making a professional cd recording ... I've made good experiences with an ORTF couple placed on a tripod in front of the orchestra, additional to this Schoeps for the soloists. Nearly nothing to see but good results. I've once made a recording of an a cappella rap combo in the staircase of a subway station - I had no choice except using a directional mic and it sounded ok but not perfect. But in this case that was ok because it was an "underground" movie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason levy Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 In the case of recording vocals live on set to a recorded track, I would think that the vocalist would have in-ear monitors to avoid bleed? And what kind of microphone for the vocalist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 I've done it various ways, including regular in-ears (which are very visible on camera), tiny induction etc in-ear wireless bugs (low-fi) that are mostly invisible, but most of the time the monitor feed just gets balanced against the mic feed and we do the best we can. Best of course is having NO monitors or PA, just the voice and the sound of the instruments, with the players balancing themselves against the voice. Vocal mics come in all shapes and type, and is a choice made by the artist and engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Documentary Sound Guy Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Lots of ways to do this, and lots of microphones. Live capture also often has the wrinkle that mics can't appear in shot, in which case you might as well capture using the boom mics and techniques you are already familiar with. I've recorded live vox using in-ear monitors and a regular MKH50 on a boom (tracking some extremely complex blocking as part of the musical number). It helps that actors tend to project when singing "musical" performances. For more static singer-guitarist setups, I've had good luck with a mid-side setup overhead on a boom, sometimes feathering in lavs to create vocal presence (watch out for phasing). But, overall, I think it's very dependent on the requirements of the performance and how it is being captured. It's rarely simple, but I find it very rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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